The Religion Debate Thread

[grayjaket]

I sorta like what you said |west|...sorta. First of all, if you believe the Bible, and you believe in God, what's to stop you from believing that he could create the world? Why is it some sort of metaphor? Just seems kinda off there.

As for the whole thing about God's perfection.
God is perfect. He doesn't make mistakes. When He created the world, He knew what would happen, He knew what He would do. There was no, oops I just wiped out all of mankind. He did it on purpose. When He told Noah that He wouldn't do it again, he was reassuring Him. God never changed. He just sorta of enacted His plan. When he sent His Son to die for us, everything changed. He forgave everyone, and let salvation come easier. Now to go back to some of that other stuff..

[grayjaket]

I don't KNOW. I believe it though. Do you KNOW God doesn't? Do you KNOW that evolution is true?

But it is a big difference knowing if god exists or knowing if the theory of evolution is correct.
The theory of evolution have been strengthened by substantial evidence, while most religions have struggled hard to make their stories believable.
(For example a great deal of Christianity is based on myths found on Sumerian clay tablets from thousands of years before there was any talk of Christianity.)

Today many priests in countries like Sweden openly admit that they don't believe that the things in the bible has actually occured, that it should rather be seen as guidelines to a way of living.
I think that would be a good progress for religions. To shed the somewhat ridiculous myths and put the focus on the good things that religions can spread.

But they finally found God. One great Christian leader, Dietrich Bonhoeffer, before he was saved, during a war, him and all his soldiers killed an entire innocent town of women and children. They lived with a terrible(and well deserved guilt for the longest time). God forgave them. Thats not to say they were not punished for that sin, which I believe they were, or will be.

But how would you know if God forgave them?

They are said to be middle links. They could also be a different species of ape, or human. Not neccessarily a link. It's just a scientific theory. Not fact.

It can be seen as a fact until another more logical theory comes along
That is how science works. You can never take anything at all for granted...

Evolution is accepted as fact in much of the world today. It is not taught as a theory in schools, it is taught as fact. That shouldn't be. It is a theory, and should be taught as such.

But everything you learn in school are theories.
A great majority of the people in those countries (including people that consider themselves religious) believe in the theory, and thus it becomes a truth. But notice that I wrote a truth instead of the truth...because I don't believe there is such a thing as one fundamental truth.

The theory of creation is also strengthened by substantial evidence. They just don't teach that in schools now do they? Try studying up on it. There's a great video series by a guy named Ken Ham. Awesome stuff.

And yes, I do believe God punishes those who do not accept his FREE gift of salvation.

This might be a small thing...but I wouldn't see a gift as free if I get punished for not accepting it [/quote]

But you're seeing it in human terms again. God punishes sin. Period. Now he offered forgiveness to anyone who would accept it. They don't have to accept it, but they have the knowledge they will recieve punishment for the sin. They aren't being punished for not accepting the gift, they are being punished for what they did. If you stole from the bank, and then you were sentenced to a life in prison, and then the judge said "If you want, I will forgive you and let you go, otherwise you will go to jail." then that would be God is doing.

But how would you know if God forgave them?

Because He said he would....

You can't know anything of course. But there is data being fed to your senses continuously which can help you decide what is probable.
evolution: fairly probable
god who punishes sin: less probable
there evidence of evolution all around. i've yet to see anything that would indicate that there's a god that punishes sin. i think if i was going to pick something completely random and unjustified to put my faith into it would be something funny like a giant moose that eats cake with a spork and plays chess against imself sitting below the crust of the earth where no one will see him. <.< >.>

And how do you arrive at that conclusion? Why is a God that punishes sin so improbable? People have the hardest time accepting that they are sinners....and that sin is punishable. It's human nature, but that's the biggest obstacle really to believing in God. Man doesn't want to be accountable. They just want to make up there own theorys of how things should be, so they can continue what they are doing.

Anyway, don't feel like I'm being too harsh. It's all in love

[kroner]

eep. now do you people see what i have against religion?
the danger is real... *hides from scary Jake*

[trage]

I sorta like what you said |west|...sorta. First of all, if you believe the Bible, and you believe in God, what's to stop you from believing that he could create the world? Why is it some sort of metaphor? Just seems kinda off there.

As for the whole thing about God's perfection.
God is perfect. He doesn't make mistakes. When He created the world, He knew what would happen, He knew what He would do. There was no, oops I just wiped out all of mankind. He did it on purpose. When He told Noah that He wouldn't do it again, he was reassuring Him. God never changed. He just sorta of enacted His plan. When he sent His Son to die for us, everything changed. He forgave everyone, and let salvation come easier. Now to go back to some of that other stuff..

Yes god is perfect. God wiped out human kind because they were too sinful and wicked. He saved Noah because he believed in god and was not wicked. He did what god told him even though he didn't understand what he was doing. He just trusted in him. Yes it was no accident it was on purpose. Why do you think he told Noah to build the arc and get two of every animal? It wasn't just an oops I made it rain for 40 days straight and didn't decide to stop it. Yes it was all intentional.

[Pirog]

trage>

Ok you say that it was reserved for enemies of the Roman Empire yet when Jesus was cruified he was not only crusified with others, but they were common criminals.

Yes, but that is stated in the bible...wich really shouldn't be seen as reliable evidence.

By the way...what do you feel about the Great Flood and other important biblical events being found on clay tablets aging thousands of years before the bible mentioned them?

Jake>

The theory of creation is also strengthened by substantial evidence.

Could you give some examples please?
I really haven't got time to read anything else than the studying material for the course I'm studying

Because He said he would....

Hehe, come on
You were kidding with that right?

[Pirog]

One thing that speaks against a god is the lack of action against the religious institutions who has profited and murdered in his name.

If he did exist he should have stopped it...

[trage]

Ok Pirog than anything we have written about that outdates 1000 years must not be true because it isn't substantial evidence.

Oh and how exactly would you know when the bible was first put into commison Pirog?

And if god acted out against every sin a person has made than there would be no people to populate the world. God choose not to interfere because he said he would not do anything till the second coming of his son. Infact in one of the books of the bible (I forgot which and who) someone was writing a letter to seven different churches. A few of them did not prosper and one was wicked. God did not destroy that church did he? He gave them the chance to correct themselves instead of stopping them. God judges people when they die.

[Pirog]

trage>

Well, you really can't trust anything dating back so far...but surely you must understand that in a discussion about if the bible is correct or not you can't use the bible as reliable evidence.

In that case I could sit at home rewriting world history and when people try to point out where I'm flat out lying I just show my own copy and say "not according to this"...

[rklenseth]

One thing that speaks against a god is the lack of action against the religious institutions who has profited and murdered in his name.

If he did exist he should have stopped it...

Why should God be the one to stop it? He gave humankind free will. Wouldn't it be illogical and sort of against the point if he gave humans free will but then whenever they did something he didn't like he intervenes. Sort of goes against the point of free will. Even if wicked people do wicked things in his name he really can't do anything. It us humans that must do something about it. It is our choice to join them, to ignore them, or to do something about it.

About what Jake said, after the Great Flood, God felt so horrible for what he did that he told Noah that he would never destroy the world again. He gave humankind free will but then when they turned into something he didn't like he destroyed them. God knew and understood the mistake he made. God's anger blinded him against even his own wisdom. So to put it God made a mistake so it goes to prove that God isn't perfect. He is a higher being and creator but that doesn't make him perfect. If he was perfect then wouldn't his creations be perfect as well?

[Pirog]

Lenseth>

But do you really consider it free will if you must live by his very words, believe in his outrageous stories or burn in hell?

trage>

Oh and how exactly would you know when the bible was first put into commison Pirog?

Well, it really doesn't matter...the story is still different since it is based on Sumerian religion. Read what I wrote about it further up, and please reply since I made the effort to look it up to get the names right etc.

[new.vogue.nightmare]

One thing that speaks against a god is the lack of action against the religious institutions who has profited and murdered in his name.

If he did exist he should have stopped it...

God's punishment takes place primarily after 'death.'

And the whole concept of faith is belief in something without substantial evidence. I'm sure you'll just call it gullibility, but I'm not here to convert anyone.

[trage]

Not neccesarily rkl. God made them in his image not perfect. People have their own free will and people who have their own free will can make wrong decisions. Now that would turn would not make them perfect. Like people's choices to sin against god makes them farther and farther away from god. The only time we are perfect is when we first come into this world. For we were made just how god wanted us to be, but than once our brain starts processing infromation we start to do things that are not what god would want us to do.

[Pirog]

God's punishment takes place primarily after 'death.'

Yes...that is very convenient, because we doubters will never be able to get any evidence in that way.
That is a very common trait in most religions...the way things always tends to happen in a non-visual way.

And the whole concept of faith is belief in something without substantial evidence. I'm sure you'll just call it gullibility, but I'm not here to convert anyone.

Yes, that is the very trouble with religions.
I do very much see it as gullibility, because it would take little effort from a god to once in a while show a sign here and there...just to keep people from killing eachother over whom is wrong or right.

I really hope that god doesn't exist, because if he/she/it does it is a very cynical god who has a huge amount of blood on his/her/it's hands...

[trage]

trage>

Oh and how exactly would you know when the bible was first put into commison Pirog?

Well, it really doesn't matter...the story is still different since it is based on Sumerian religion. Read what I wrote about it further up, and please reply since I made the effort to look it up to get the names right etc.

Ok you said they were thousands of years before the bible was made. How can you know that if you don't even know when the bible was first made?

[Pirog]

trage>

Well, I know it wasn't written by the Sumerians anyway

But I can't help feeling that you are trying to dodge the issue by grilling me on this...