The Religion Debate Thread

[kroner]

Europe doesn't exist... nope. Just a theory. You can't prove it.

[Pirog]

Well, Europe is just a name on a continent...so it exists only because we recognize it and accept it.
But many things about Europe are decieving...like the fact that Sicily is closer to Tunisia then the Italian mainland.

[kroner]

but you can't prove it!!! *gets crazed look in his eyes*

Jake, you can't even prove to me that you exist. you are just a theory to me. so just because something is a theory, doesn't mean it isn't valid to assume true if there's substantial enough evidence.

[Pirog]

"040328: You slap Kroner in the face."

Get a grip!

[rklenseth]

Hmmmm. Time to read the old testament again. Lots of threats of smiting and punishing in that one.

True but God changed. Jesus Christ said that God will punish the wicked not the sinful. God already made that mistake during the Great Flood where he literally wiped out humanity. And I think after that that God changed. I also think his son, Jesus, had a lot to do with is change as well. On the cross right before dying, Jesus forgave all of humanity for their sins including those that had tortured and put him to die on that cross.

[kroner]

i'm failing to see a logical motivation that god would have in any of this...

and an omnipotent, omniscient being making mistakes? changing its mind? are you saying god is petty and stupid like some human? that sounds pretty blasphemous to me....

[Pirog]

Lenseth>

I find it interesting that people actually believe myths like the Great Flood. You are pretty much the first person I have talked to that does...

But then again, you probably believe Fox News to

Seriously, since many other historical events have been blown out of proportion by either verbal re-telling or from other reasons I wonder why you believe in these myths and not in others?

[Meh]

At a minimum there is evidence of a regional flood in that time period that would have covered several present day countires in that region for days on end.

Then there is a theory of atlantis in the region where the mediterrain sea was a deep sub sealevel valley that was inidanted by the sea but I never saw any proof of that one unlike the regional flood who's evidence is visible from satellite data.

Within the last 20,000 years the sea levels rose at least 100 feet slowly flooding removing 20% of the land mass to what we have today. How many lost towns are buried within ten miles and 100 feet down of present day coast lines? Wonder if they argued about resource gathering rights with wooden bows and bone earrings and such...

[Pirog]

Here I will write some things from the bible that also occurs in for example Sumerian mythology, wich is described as the first civilization ever:

Myths about important people being put in baskets in rivers as children were quite common amongst several minor asian cultures.
King Sargon of Akkad was one of the people surrounded by such a myth.

The creation of Adam and Eve.
In the Sumerian version there is also an interesting form of word-play that got lost when the semite tribes incorporated it in their religion.
(yes, I know you will protest about that )
Eve, or Enki as she was called in the Sumerian version, had eaten a forbidden fruit and was cursed by disease in several parts of her body, amongst those one of her ribs.
The punishing godess regretted her harshness and created a "rib spirit/godess" to heal Enki's diseased rib. In Sumerian rib (ti) is the same word as life. So the "rib godess" was probably meant as a"life godess" and formed a word-play that was lost when the myth travelled on to regions where the language was different and ribs had nothing to do with life.

The "Great Flood" was also established in the Sumerian mythology and even incorporated in the Gilgamesh epos.
The immortal Utnapishtim tells Gilgamesh that he overheard the gods planning to destroy humanity by a great flood and that he plans to make a huge ship where he will collect "the seed of the Earth".
The story then goes on describing other details similar to the one in the old testament.
Nowdays it's known that the story goes even further back, and origins from a poem about how the gods made the humans out of clay to do their work, but found them so loud and disturbing that they tried to kill them by pestilence etc, and in the end a great flood. Even there one of the humans built a huge ship together with his family, servants and many animals and managed to survive the flood.

Other myths are also based on Sumerian mythology, like that of Romulus and Remus who were deserted and brought up by a wolf...

[Pirog]

Meh>

Almost all myths originate from some truth.
There are many theories regarding Jesus to, that he was simply a very important political leader.
The Christ part in Jesus Christ means "king" for example, so he might have been a form of resistance leader...wich would also explain why he was crucified, since that was a punishment that was pretty much reserved only for "terrorists" and political enemies.

[rklenseth]

i'm failing to see a logical motivation that god would have in any of this...

and an omnipotent, omniscient being making mistakes? changing its mind? are you saying god is petty and stupid like some human? that sounds pretty blasphemous to me....

I was pointing out that God makes mistakes. He even admitted that the Great Flood was a mistake to Noah and that he would never do it again. I don't see how it is being petty and stupid. Life teaches you many things and I don't see how that makes you stupid. What makes you stupid is when you are taught a lesson but you do not learn from that lesson.

Remember that God made humans in the image of himself. If God was perfect than so would we be but we aren't perfect so that doesn't make God perfect.

[rklenseth]

Here I will write some things from the bible that also occurs in for example Sumerian mythology, wich is described as the first civilization ever:

Myths about important people being put in baskets in rivers as children were quite common amongst several minor asian cultures.
King Sargon of Akkad was one of the people surrounded by such a myth.

The creation of Adam and Eve.
In the Sumerian version there is also an interesting form of word-play that got lost when the semite tribes incorporated it in their religion.
(yes, I know you will protest about that )
Eve, or Enki as she was called in the Sumerian version, had eaten a forbidden fruit and was cursed by disease in several parts of her body, amongst those one of her ribs.
The punishing godess regretted her harshness and created a "rib spirit/godess" to heal Enki's diseased rib. In Sumerian rib (ti) is the same word as life. So the "rib godess" was probably meant as a"life godess" and formed a word-play that was lost when the myth travelled on to regions where the language was different and ribs had nothing to do with life.

The "Great Flood" was also established in the Sumerian mythology and even incorporated in the Gilgamesh epos.
The immortal Utnapishtim tells Gilgamesh that he overheard the gods planning to destroy humanity by a great flood and that he plans to make a huge ship where he will collect "the seed of the Earth".
The story then goes on describing other details similar to the one in the old testament.
Nowdays it's known that the story goes even further back, and origins from a poem about how the gods made the humans out of clay to do their work, but found them so loud and disturbing that they tried to kill them by pestilence etc, and in the end a great flood. Even there one of the humans built a huge ship together with his family, servants and many animals and managed to survive the flood.

Other myths are also based on Sumerian mythology, like that of Romulus and Remus who were deserted and brought up by a wolf...

That just proves my point that religions are mostly the same and that chances are it is the same higher being behind everything. It is just that that higher being is seen in different ways and worshipped in different ways but does the message ever change? From what I have seen so far, no it hasn't.

I think the point that 'Great Flood' is told in every ancient civilization on every continent pretty much around the same time is just prove that some sort of flood happened.

[Pirog]

Lenseth>

I must say that I find your view on religion very sensible.
If everyone could see a little flaw in their Gods, and have a bit of an ironic distance to their belief, we probably wouldn't have any religious wars...

[Pirog]

That just proves my point that religions are mostly the same and that chances are it is the same higher being behind everything. It is just that that higher being is seen in different ways and worshipped in different ways but does the message ever change? From what I have seen so far, no it hasn't.

Well...that is of course one view.
A "non-believer" would see it as proof that religions were made up to explain things that those days philosofers couldn't explain, and that they incorporated parts of ancient folklore in their stories to make them easier for people to believe.

I think the point that 'Great Flood' is told in every ancient civilization on every continent pretty much around the same time is just prove that some sort of flood happened.

Yes, there are many things pointing towards such a flood, and I have full understanding for the people of that age thinking some devine power would have been behind it.
But the Sumerians existed thousands of years before christianity...

[rklenseth]

Meh>

Almost all myths originate from some truth.
There are many theories regarding Jesus to, that he was simply a very important political leader.
The Christ part in Jesus Christ means "king" for example, so he might have been a form of resistance leader...wich would also explain why he was crucified, since that was a punishment that was pretty much reserved only for "terrorists" and political enemies.

First of all, the Bible explains pretty well that Jesus was king but not king of any earthly realm but king of heaven. Jesus said that he did not oppose the leaders of the world during his time 'Give unto Caesar what is Caesar's but give unto God what is God's'. In fact, Jesus never raised an army or armed his followers and he volunteeringly let himself be captured even after he was warned.

Both Rome and the Jewish hierarchy feared Jesus because he did claimed to be some sort of king and that he had so many followers. So Rome captured him then tortured him to find out if he was raising an army or arming his followers. After they found out that he was little threat they handed him over to the Jewish hierarchy who charged him crimes of what we would call today as heresy. Many Jewish people feared that he was creating a new religion when he really wasn't. He was just preaching the Old Testament. It wasn't until after Jesus died on the cross that the Jewish religion broke up, Christian people breaking away from the Jewish religion because they believe that Jesus was the savior that the Old Testament spoke of while the Jewish people who stayed believed that Jesus was just a man, a good man, but not a savior or king of heaven or the son of God.

Crucification occurred to most criminals during this time period that were sentenced to death. It was the accepted form for the death penalty at this time like the electric chair was back in the 1950s etc... It wasn't reserved for 'terrorists' or political enemies.