The Religion Debate Thread

[Meh]

I see now.

On all sides I recommend not trying to to have sceince prove or disprove the bible or vise versa. The bible is not a FAQ for the universe. It is a really long capitial rule discussion that hasn't been updated in nearly 2000 years and some of the translation work done on it was really screwed up in some of the versions that are floating around. But it's not like there's going to be any burning bushes popping up anytime soon to clarify things. So you'll just have to deal with it the way it is. But if your interested in the postion of updating it contact prophets@alpha-omega.gov.

That was perfect.

Thanks

I have the one's personal e-mail too.

i_can_divide_by_zero@alpha-omega.gov

That's the only one you can get directly though on. The other e-mails are handled by other staff members.

[trage]

When I said allo evil comes from Europe I meant the earliest fossils of human like creatures were found in europe .

[The Hunter]

Africa. And not humanlike but human.

[trage]

I read somewhere that the earliest found fossils were found in Europe, and I say humanlike is because they were different, but they were the closest thing to us.

[creepyguyinblack]

Just to hop on board, I consider myself an atheistic technotheist. I basically just believe in science and technology. I've been an atheist since I was in middle school, and was a practicing satanist for about a year after highschool but left the church because of schedule conflicts.

[grayjaket]

I have a question. Why do people complain that God punishes the non-believers? It seems they will only accept a God that's either REALLY nice and let's them do what they want...or no God at all. Is it too unreal to have a God that punishes sin? Is that just too much to handle?

[kroner]

I have a question. Why do people complain that God punishes the non-believers? It seems they will only accept a God that's either REALLY nice and let's them do what they want...or no God at all. Is it too unreal to have a God that punishes sin? Is that just too much to handle?

Where are you getting this? God punishes sin? How do you know?

And to answer your question, I'm merely arguing that these are the aspects of some religions that are harmful. you can't think openly and clearly if you fear that some omniscient being will punish you if you arrive at some other conclusion than the one you've had drilled into your head all your life.
But of course it's much harder to keep a line of followers without this fear to keep them in place. This is the natural selection of religions (Darwin strikes again!... willingly or not).

[rklenseth]

Actually that is not always the case, Kroner. My religion teaches me to love God as he loves me and not to fear him. The fear of God thing is mostly a Protestant thing and has never been a Catholic belief.

God doesn't punish those that come to different conclusions. He gave humans the will to think freely and so we will.

He does punish those that do wicked things though he does have the capacity to forgive. Remember, even though humans tortured and murdered his son, he still forgave them for what they did just as his son did.

Jesus Christ kept followers and never preached fear. He preached love, tolerance, and forgiving of your fellow humans. Jesus once said let the first human without sin cast the first stone. I believe God can look into a person and see what that person really is. He can tell if a person is trying to mean well or is doing something for greed or some other evil intentions and judges upon a person for that. I believe a person who does great evil can still find salvation as long as that person tries to do so. As humans are imperfect so is God. God admitted to Noah that the Great Flood was a mistake and told Noah that never again will his hand strike down humanity. The rainbow that we see after rainstorms is God's everlasting promise to humanity that he will never do this.

It is said in the Bible that God will punish the wicked, or better defined as evil intentioned people, not those that are sinful. We have all sinned in our lives and unless you are some very strict Protestant then you can't believe that most of humanity is destined to Hell.

[kroner]

ok listen, i'm not saying anything about your religion. i said "some religions" i did not say "rkl's religion which by the way is in all ways evil and a plague on humanity". just wanted to clear that up thanks.

edit: that's not to say that your religion isn't necessarily a plague on humanity, just that it was fairly clear in the post that i was in no way implying it.... then.

[The Hunter]

Hmmmm. Time to read the old testament again. Lots of threats of smiting and punishing in that one.

[Pirog]

I read somewhere that the earliest found fossils were found in Europe, and I say humanlike is because they were different, but they were the closest thing to us.

That's not true, but they have found some good fossils of "middle-links" between apes and humans in Europe.
(Neanderthal, Cro-Magnon etc.)

[Pirog]

Oh...and for the sake of the topic, here's my profile.

I'm not part of any religion, and does so far believe in the dry, analythical, purely scientifical theories.
I have not ruled out the possibility of a conscious force that can be considered a god, but I find it very unlikely.

As far as my thoughts about religious people I have the arrogance of feeling that the ones that for example believe the stuff in the bible are somewhat naive, but as long as they respect non-believers I have no problem with them.

[grayjaket]

Where are you getting this? God punishes sin? How do you know?

And to answer your question, I'm merely arguing that these are the aspects of some religions that are harmful. you can't think openly and clearly if you fear that some omniscient being will punish you if you arrive at some other conclusion than the one you've had drilled into your head all your life.
But of course it's much harder to keep a line of followers without this fear to keep them in place. This is the natural selection of religions (Darwin strikes again!... willingly or not).

I don't KNOW. I believe it though. Do you KNOW God doesn't? Do you KNOW that evolution is true? Do you KNOW that tomorrow your computer will still be there? No...it's stupid to say that. We're not talking about what we know. We're talking about belief. k?

And yes, I do believe God punishes those who do not accept his FREE gift of salvation. He punishes them because they sin. We all sin. But he makes it simple, so simple, to be forgiven from that sin, all that he asks is that you accept his gift of salvation...it's not like he's asking you to live a perfect life...there are people I know who have done horrible things in their lives. But they finally found God. One great Christian leader, Dietrich Bonhoeffer, before he was saved, during a war, him and all his soldiers killed an entire innocent town of women and children. They lived with a terrible(and well deserved guilt for the longest time). God forgave them. Thats not to say they were not punished for that sin, which I believe they were, or will be.

That's not true, but they have found some good fossils of "middle-links" between apes and humans in Europe.
(Neanderthal, Cro-Magnon etc.)

They are said to be middle links. They could also be a different species of ape, or human. Not neccessarily a link. It's just a scientific theory. Not fact. That needs to be clarified. Some of those "missing links" have been proven, by the same scientists, that they were not actually links. Some were falsified. Just thought i'd say that. This also kind of clarifies an early point I made. Evolution is accepted as fact in much of the world today. It is not taught as a theory in schools, it is taught as fact. That shouldn't be. It is a theory, and should be taught as such.

Oh yeah, and RKL, my religion teaches me the same thing. The word "fear" is not literal fear, like scared fear. It is a sort of respect. Fear the Lord refers to acknowledging his sovereignity. I didn't put it the best way I could. But yeah.

P.S. I'm no expert at theology, so I'm doin the best I can...:-p

[kroner]

I don't KNOW. I believe it though. Do you KNOW God doesn't? Do you KNOW that evolution is true? Do you KNOW that tomorrow your computer will still be there? No...it's stupid to say that. We're not talking about what we know. We're talking about belief. k?

You can't know anything of course. But there is data being fed to your senses continuously which can help you decide what is probable.
evolution: fairly probable
god who punishes sin: less probable
there evidence of evolution all around. i've yet to see anything that would indicate that there's a god that punishes sin. i think if i was going to pick something completely random and unjustified to put my faith into it would be something funny like a giant moose that eats cake with a spork and plays chess against imself sitting below the crust of the earth where no one will see him. <.< >.>

[Pirog]

I don't KNOW. I believe it though. Do you KNOW God doesn't? Do you KNOW that evolution is true?

But it is a big difference knowing if god exists or knowing if the theory of evolution is correct.
The theory of evolution have been strengthened by substantial evidence, while most religions have struggled hard to make their stories believable.
(For example a great deal of Christianity is based on myths found on Sumerian clay tablets from thousands of years before there was any talk of Christianity.)

Today many priests in countries like Sweden openly admit that they don't believe that the things in the bible has actually occured, that it should rather be seen as guidelines to a way of living.
I think that would be a good progress for religions. To shed the somewhat ridiculous myths and put the focus on the good things that religions can spread.

And yes, I do believe God punishes those who do not accept his FREE gift of salvation.

This might be a small thing...but I wouldn't see a gift as free if I get punished for not accepting it

But they finally found God. One great Christian leader, Dietrich Bonhoeffer, before he was saved, during a war, him and all his soldiers killed an entire innocent town of women and children. They lived with a terrible(and well deserved guilt for the longest time). God forgave them. Thats not to say they were not punished for that sin, which I believe they were, or will be.

But how would you know if God forgave them?

They are said to be middle links. They could also be a different species of ape, or human. Not neccessarily a link. It's just a scientific theory. Not fact.

It can be seen as a fact until another more logical theory comes along
That is how science works. You can never take anything at all for granted...

Evolution is accepted as fact in much of the world today. It is not taught as a theory in schools, it is taught as fact. That shouldn't be. It is a theory, and should be taught as such.

But everything you learn in school are theories.
A great majority of the people in those countries (including people that consider themselves religious) believe in the theory, and thus it becomes a truth. But notice that I wrote a truth instead of the truth...because I don't believe there is such a thing as one fundamental truth.