Cantreality: The Bug of Reality

[Gran]

The more I start to think about cantr and realism, more it seems to me that there is no realism at all in it ><, only a green confuse mass of boiling thoughts written in white letters.

The Cantreality doesn't applies in the know reality, and by that it denies many of the possibilities of it. Many products, properties and reactions simply don't exist. The evolution of the knowledge is chaotic because of holes in production and the lack of universal properties that would allow cantrians to investigate their own world. Knowledge about production becomes then OOC, a universal blessing to all the sentient beings, what also ends up with the extinction specialists, since everybody knows how to make all products.

The idea here is to discuss the theorical problems of the current cantreality, using rational arguments and also propose a cantruniverse model.

Here I have the following things to point:

- A Cantrian Planet would have serious problems in reality. First, the cantrian year is of 20 days lenght, Earth's year is 365 days lenght. So the Planet would have to be 18,25 times faster than Earth's speed (107,235 Km/h) or it orbit would have to be smaller.

So, by the equation V = √GM/R where "V" is the orbital speed, "G" the gravitational constant and "R" the orbit's radius.

Let's say V is the speed of earth (107,235 Km/h) and R its radius (150,000,000 Km) So:

V = √GM/R and 18,25V =√GM/R' :. V/18,25V = √GM/R /√GM/R' , 18,25= √R/R', (18,25)² = R/R' :. R' = R/(18,25)² = 150,000,000/ 333.0625 = 450,366 Km aproximately. The Sun's equatorial radius is 695,500 Km.

So the Cantrian Planet would be inside the central star of its system if the cantrian world moves with the same speed and has the same size of earth and it's sun has the same size as ours. To be outside, then the star that it orbits should be a lot more dense, and could emmit diferent kinds of radiation. In any way, it is probable that a planet like that wouldn't be able to sustain complex life forms.

- Cantr doesn't have density(D) and this is simple. Get a object called barrel. It says it can storage 10kg. Water has the density of 1g/ml, so you could store 10Kg of water and the volume used would be of 10L. However, if you fill the barrel with iron, it will store the same 10Kg and the same 10L, ignoring that iron's density is 7x water's density, so it would use less volume. In a similar fashion, if you fill it with oil, it will be the same as filling it with water, even if oil would use much more volume since it has a lower density. And so goes on with stone, bricks, carrots, wheat, bread, wood etc...

Therefore, D is a constant for all matter. So it can be 1 (D=M/V, D=10kg/10L .: D=1kg/L) or zero.

Well, being all the same it means that by buoyancy: "If the object has exactly the same density as the fluid, then its buoyancy equals its weight. It will tend neither to sink nor float". So by this, sailing must by quite an art in cantr. >> Any weight that you add to the boat would make it sink a little, and it without anything would still be in the edge of the waterline.

If you disagree, want to point solutions or simply more "bugs": discuss.

[Voltenion]

Fazia-te bem era saíres de casa, Gran. --"

[Doug R.]

- A Cantrian Planet would have serious problems in reality. First, the cantrian year is of 20 days lenght, Earth's year is 365 days lenght. So the Planet would have to be 18,25 times faster than Earth's speed (107,235 Km/h) or it orbit would have to be smaller.

You're making the assumption that a "year" in Cantr is based on it's revolution about a sun. However, it could be biological - Cantrian's know down to the second if someone is older or younger than them.

Also, the fact that there is no night in cantr means that the planet must have light sources from both sides - possibly balanced between two binary stars, meaning that it isn't in orbit at all. Force of being pulled in two directions could account for the planet's doughnut shape, although I think that force would result in more of an oval than a doughnut, and the plate tectonics would be horrific.

I don't think sailing would be much more difficult. Water displacement would still apply, and as long as the ships were properly balanced, they wouldn't tip when empty.

[CantrFreak]

There is night in Cantr... at least I think so.

[Doug R.]

You may role-play night, but there is no "physical" evidence of it. The sun is mentioned in clothing descriptions, and the terrain images are lit, but there is no mention anywhere of darkness.

[Gran]

I used the cantrian year to calculate its orbit because it is the only year stated in game. Besides that, there is no actual proof of what kind of year it is. The only we know is that it would be strange to be a solar year. However, the cantrian planet could be a moon of a giant planet.

Life on a planet locked between binary stars faces a big problem, the high temperatures. Since it is constantly receiving radiation from both sides, binary planets tend to be too hot. A "fresh" temperature would be 40ºC (need to check), but if it is far from its stars it may be reasonable.

I don't think sailing would be much more difficult. Water displacement would still apply, and as long as the ships were properly balanced, they wouldn't tip when empty.

Since the ship is much like more water in the water, wouldn't any force applied on it from up to down sink it a little?

[Doug R.]

Just because two things have the same density doesn't make them similar in any other way. The easiest way to think about this is to consider balsa wood. Balsa wood floats on water, which means that it is less dense than water. This is even more extreme than considering a ship and water with the same density, and you can try it in your own bathtub.

A ship made of balsa wood will float very close on the surface of the water. Weight applied on the deck will make it sink a little - but this is how any ship works, regardless of whether it is more dense, less dense, or the same density as water. The only difference is the amount of water displacement needed - the heavier/more dense materials used to build the ship, the greater the displacement needed for the ship to float.

A Cantr ship would require less water displacement to float than a real life ship made of steel, but more displacement than a real life ship made with balsa wood. That's the difference, and it wouldn't impact actual sailing much at all, just in ship design.

[Miri]

Life on a planet locked between binary stars faces a big problem, the high temperatures. Since it is constantly receiving radiation from both sides, binary planets tend to be too hot. A "fresh" temperature would be 40ºC (need to check), but if it is far from its stars it may be reasonable.

Maybe that's the reason behind so many cantrians running around in "nothing worth mentioning" for their whole life?

[CantrFreak]

What about the theory about multiple dimensions? Cantr would be in one of the other dimesions where the laws we know here wouldn't apply...

In fact, in real life, there could be a Cantr-like universe somewhere in another dimension with Cracktar, Alexi Romanov, and all that if it's true since theres an infine number of universes and stuff!

[Gran]

The Cantreality doesn't applies in the known reality.

We are comparing to the universe in which we live, not multiple dimensions. I should have stated clearer, but I edited way too much the original post and forgot it.

Water density is 998 Kg/m³. Dry balsa wood density is 140 Kg/m³. The thing is that all things in cantr use the same volume, there is no difference between densities. Then if anything makes the ship sink e.g. a projectile, it won't be brought back to the surface since it does not float.

The only ships can float is if they encloses a volume of air to make them have a overall density lower than water.

[Piscator]

The ship wouldn't sink but not move at all (unless you push it). If an object has the same density as the surrounding medium it's virtually weightless.

The double sun problem isn't one, by the way. The suns would just have to be further away.

And I'm not sure of the derivation of uniform density is applicable at all because space seems to work in an entirely different fashion in Cantr. How else could a house with 12 rooms still look like a hut from outside?

PS Where did Doug's post go?

[Doug R.]

You're right, and I'm wrong. However, I'm having a hard time conceptualizing this scenario.

d=m/v You're saying all density = 1, so v = m

A ship floats if the mass of water displaced is more than mass of the ship. A ship accomplishes this by having more volume than mass (density < 1). However, in your scenario, volume = mass, so the ship can't float. But does it sink?

The best way for me to think about this is to imagine a marble on a floor. Since the density of the ship, air, and water is the same, then the ship has a full range of possible 3-D motion, like a marble on a floor has 2-D motion.

What will make the marble move? Adding mass won't do anything, the marble will sit there. This means that ships in Cantr shouldn't have mass limits, since mass is irrelevant to their density. The only thing that will make the marble move is force. A person jumping onto the deck will cause the ship to sink, and keep sinking, until the friction of the water against the hull stops the motion, the same as force applied to the marble will cause it to roll until the friction against the floor stops it.

So, the simple act of boarding and walking on a ship will make it sink, especially as Cantrians in general have far more mass than the ships they sail upon, and hence generate considerable force when boarding a ship (F=ma).

Conversely, any force directed at the underside of a ship would cause it to float in air. In fact, this would apply to everything, creating a pseudo anti-gravity environment (gravity being constant across the experiment, so having no net effect).

So, sailing in your scenario is completely impossible (submarining would be possible, but there are no submarines in Cantr), and since Cantrians aren't floating around in an environment of homogenous density (like aquarium fish), we can only conclude that volume in Cantr does exist, but not in any way that Cantrian's can perceive. For example, under this hypothesis, containers and buildings must expand and contract depending upon what materials are placed inside of them.

This expansion and contraction of volume is the only way Cantrian ships can float, given that they can carry much more than their own mass in cargo (a gallon can carry 6.8 times its own mass). A real-world ship can only take on it's own volume in cargo before it sinks. Let us then assume that a safe maximum cargo amount would be 1/2 the ship's volume (a very liberal assumption, 1/4 would probably be more realistic).

A galleon can carry 1800kg of mass, yet weighs 264kg.
Let us assume the total volume of the galleon = 528L, giving it a density of 0.5 (assuming water still = 1).

The only way we can fit all the cargo on the galleon and still have it fit the stated parameters is if 1800kg of mass is reduced to 132kg of effective mass. To do that, the galleon's volume needs to EXPAND when cargo is added to it, at a rate of 1.72 Liters per Kg added.

I'll leave it to someone else to speculate how that could be possible.

[joo]

It is interesting to hypothesise about how the laws of physics apply to Cantr, but you mustn't forget that it wasn't exactly created with the laws of physics in mind: a ship isn't a rigid, hollow object floating upon a body of liquid - it has no shape, or density - it is a container which can hold a certain volume of material, and which can be directed to move upon a certain type of area specified in the map. The speed of the boat is calculated by a constant given by the type of ship and its sails, and the volume of material it is holding.

So, like all games that don't directly employ a physics engine, all rules are symbolic, simplified representations of the real world, but the only rules which apply are those which are programmed arbitrarily.

[Tiamo]

A galleon can carry 1800kg of mass, yet weighs 264kg.
Let us assume the total volume of the galleon = 528L, giving it a density of 0.5 (assuming water still = 1).

This assumption is incorrect. The hull of the galleon weighs 264 kg. It is shaped in such a way that it can hold a total of 1800 kg., being equal to 1800 liters of 'material'. The total effective volume of an empty galleon would be 2064 liters, leading to an effective density of 0,128 kg/l. If the galleon is not fully loaded it will easily float on the water (unless air also has a density of 1 ), and thus can be used as a ship.

By the way, the density of humans is 1 too. They take exactly the same amount of space/weight capacity as any resource does, weighing 60 kg. This would make humans quite small though, with a volume of just 60 liters.

[Gran]

I came to the same conclusion as Tiamo, since objects expanding as you add weight sounds weird :X .

So ships must have holes on them, or at least places where it can make a volume backup, filled.

And still based on the barrel argument, since the storage objects nor buildings create vacuum inside them, probably air has a density that is not even worth mentioning. It could be used on ship desing to make ships have a higher volume and also, eliminates the possibility of floating around.

Alsooo... Cantrians might be lilliputians in disguise.