Game Mechanics Vs Game Ideal

[Vazalco]

Be anything you want.

Except, of course, a fighter, bodybuilder, guard, soldier, etc., etc.

What I'm trying to say is the "be anything you want" is a lie because your characters are (against your will) predispositioned to be good at certain skills -- skills that you may not want them to have. Unlike most games where you start off at the same baseline as everyone else and then work your way up (a fair advantage), the characters in Cantr start off with unbalanced skills.

For example, two people spawn, and maybe one is very strong and an expert fighter, and the other can't do crap except maybe expert collecting. That sounds real fair and balanced to me.

There's no reason to lie to people and tell them that they can have their character do anything when in reality their characters are predispositioned against the player's will to favor certain other activities.

[Vazalco]

Skills make perfect sense in cantr as a society simulator.

The difference between Cantr and other games is that in other games, you start at a baseline and then choose what you want to be good at and work your way to that.

Cantr hands you your skills at random. No effort required. My point is that people can spawn an expert fighter who is also very strong and no effort was required on their part -- they were merely lucky enough to have one. So don't give me this crap about society simulator, because in real life people have to work to become experts in their field.

Cantr just hands you the skills -- if you're lucky enough. And if you're not lucky, well, then... tough.

[DylPickle]

I do not agree with you there. The BIG difference between cantr and typical free web-based games is that cantr is about playing a role within a simulated society, whereas other games are about leveling skills and killing monsters.

Cantr is about using your brain, interacting with things, creating things. There is one cantr, and nothing out there that offers even near the same concept of game. Leave the leveling brain-drain to the thousands upon thousands of D&D RPG muds out there, and keep it far away from here.

[trexdino]

And what some people don't see, every single skill is improved as you work with it. You truly can be whatever you want, sometimes you just have to strive for it. I know that is how it is in real life.
I actually know a story about this Greek politician that had a speaking disorder when he was young, and he wanted to speak normally more than anything. So everyday he shoved pebbles in his mouth and screamed across the Mediterranean. When he was older, people would travel from the other side of Greece to hear him speak.

Like I said, you have to try sometimes to become what you want to be.

[Tangential]

Be anything you want.

Except, of course, a fighter, bodybuilder, guard, soldier, etc., etc.

No, you can be a fighter, bodyguard, soldier, etc. The only limits being put on your character are the limits you as a player are putting on them. One of my character is the worst awkward in fighting and he is a soldier and pirate seeker. Despite this setback, he will be dedicating his life to train until he gets to expert. In fact, 13 out of 15 of his skills are below average (half of which are awkward). Just because your character isn't spawned super strong or super skilled doesn't mean you should give up hope on your character or are too lazy to improve your character's strength and skill.

Also, the game does not lie when it says you can be anything you want. If strength and skill are so important to you, then the great thing is about this game is you can have up to 15 characters. Strengths: much weaker than average, weaker than average, average, stronger than average, much stronger than average. So that means there's around 40% chance of being strong.

[Vipho]

Interesting that almost all those complaining seem to be upset about one thing: strength. Am I the only one who finds humor here? Nobody's raised a stink because they're a bad tailor and wanted to be a designer, or that they wanted to be a funeral director and aren't very good at burying.

If I wanted a "my character can kick your character's a**" game I wouldn't be here in the first place, those are a dime a dozen.

I love it when I have a preconceived notion about a character, and he's either put in a place that idea doesn't work (or is already done) or he's not able to do it well. That's when I'm forced to actually RP my way out of my ideas and back into a new character.

Plus, if you actually want to be a fighter, strength/skill might be a problem. If you want to be a soldier, perhaps a leader of soldiers, not as much. At least not according to history. Perhaps a "born soldier" should strive to become an average soldier but a great general, instead of just complaining that he's not good at fighting.

I actually have a character now that does only one thing I've tried above average, and even not an expert at that. And he's weaker than average. He's well on his way to becoming a leader, because people around him realize he notices things they don't and has everyone's interest at heart. He's even talked with his closest companion about trading off work and honing the others observational skills, and the guy doesn't want to. He'd rather work and let me watch things. So basically my biggest loser skills-wise among my characters is likely to gather a following and be a leader. That's RP. If I want quests or pure fighting I'll go somewhere else.

[tiddy ogg]

To try to get this back on topic: we all seem to agree that the title page is worng. So, what should be there: You can strive to be...
The intention is to differentiate this game from the hack and slash stuff, which is quite correct. But it shouldn't imply that you *can* be anything you want, only that you can aim for that.
I think it ought to point out that your char comes into the world with nothing and it's up to you to make him/her into whatever you can, with the limitations with which he/she finds him/herself in whatever random environment he/she is spawned.

[Voltenion]

To try to get this back on the thing that made in go away from the topic:

For example, two people spawn, and maybe one is very strong and an expert fighter, and the other can't do crap except maybe expert collecting. That sounds real fair and balanced to me.

Good, it sounds fair to me too! Why do you need be a soldier? Have you some how forgotten the purpose of this game? It's not about violence! So stop trying to get the super soldier and the depressed hunter who's always travelling and all and looks very cool, but gives nothing to the game! And start being the wanted trader, the active man in the town, the strange guy with awesome theories, the leader who keeps everyone awake with new ideas or simply the village idiot that keeps everyone awake and laughing. Don't forget what the game's about, it's about society. It's about talking to each other, that means being the biggest beast in the world won't get you anywhere if you're alone. You'll always need someone. Little guys can help great armys too, it's really not about the strengh and skills, it's about interacting with people, remember? RP

TO try to get this back on topic: Well, I don't think the tittle is that bad. But new ideas always help We should also tell them that entire history of the game is made by the players alone. And we can use the "5 things you love most about Cantr" topic to know what we should say on the title page.

[Gran]

Haven't anyone noticed this?

I had a guy who was spawned big and dumb, but he knew stealing was wrong and was sure to chase every thief he saw, so he got appointed a town guard. But then the skills hit and he was suddenly both weak and awkward. Someone dragged him playfully and was surprised to realize they had succeeded, since this character had been rp'ed as big and strong all his life. Suddenly he wasn't. He may still have been big, but with world's lousiest balance and motorics. Eventually he got depressed when he couldn't do his job and went inside, hitting himself with a waster almost every day, for several years. One day I noticed it was saying novicely, but turns out it was just that thing that was implemented to make suicide possible. He never reached novice level. He had a lot of food but when he ran out, he didn't go get more. He put away his equipment, walked off on a road and died.

This history is, for me at least, far more interesting than any heroic pirate pursuer tale. Why should we keep chasing a stereotype if the frustrated tale is much better?

Alkso, as told before, you should't rely solely on your char's habilities to go on, because as the ranters alredy said, you can't trust it.

[Money]

I would have to say that strength and fighting skill do not make you a better soldier. I would like to refer to the example of my character Master Sergeant Darn Resbon. He was average strength and a novice fighter yet he climbed to the highest nco rank their was, through shear loyalty and determination. I also like to think that someday he may have become an officer.

[formerly known as hf]

This came up before, but I can't be arsed to fin the topic right now.

There was an argument about whether-or-not the front page still held after the skill introduction (largely held by those vocal people who were very much against. Most of which (sadly) have now left). My point at the time, and still stands, was that the front page never held.

If you want a 'blacksmith' (as a generic role, replace with merchant, sailor, explorer, politician, jeweler or whatnot). You would have laways needed to create more than one character, most likely, before you had one who was in the right area where there was a demand for a blacksmith, the resoucres reasily available and the infrastructure upon which to build.

You were never going to have a charater be a 'blacksmith' or anything like that, spawning either in a very, very bsy area where everything was sorted, or in a tiny, animal ridden outpost.

In my experience, where a character spawns has a much greater effect upon what that character plays than anything else, but that may well be my play style.

THat being said, the front page still holds - you can play all those roles, and much, much more. But not necessarily with any character you choose to try with.

[saztronic]

I would actually argue that skills and skill levels aren't differentiated enough. If you're awkward at smithing, you can still be a blacksmith -- it just takes you a couple of hours longer. Who cares? In a game I check a coupla times a day, does two game hours here or there really make a difference? Not in the slightest.

The point being that skills and skill levels don't actually affect game play that much -- and therefore, they offer little if anything to the game. I would think the purpose of having skills would be to encourage specialization and cooperation, the better to simulate societies. Some people are naturally athletic, others aren't. Some have high hand-eye and fine motor skills, others don't. It should make more of a difference in your economic/production/professional potential, not less, if you are awkward or expert at certain things.

[SekoETC]

There should also be more logic. If you're good at digging graves, you should also be good at digging for sand. Although being good at digging for sand doesn't necessarily make you feel comfortable with touching corpses. But some aspects of skills are related in real life while in Cantr they're all separate. It would be better if there were more general attributes besides strength, like sleight of hand and agility, maybe also perception and intelligence, and they would form the base of speciality skills. But this has been discussed before without results.

[ilumino]

These examples show that you cant actually play anything you want. You can play anything you want provided the randomness of the game lets you.

I always thought that Cantr let you increase any skill, so long as you spend the time improving them. This isn't the way it is?

[SekoETC]

Yes, but some might argue that the speed of improvement is too slow. I have some characters (or at least one) who feel embarrassed to work on something at which they are awkward, so they would have to practice in secrecy until they are at least novice, preferably efficient.