Re: Spanish

[Sunni Daez]

If you are not sincere about learning, then no.. don't.. but if you put the effort in.. it won't take long to gain what you need to communicate... and I don't see it as a problem... If you truely will put the effort in.. then go for it... I know some spanish, but also know I will not be dedicated enough to learn.. hence no spanish charri...

I see english charris who cannot speak english... one that only ever used words he had heard before.. there was nothing wrong with that... and honestly..I don't think those people in other languages are going to be any more serious about their charris as english are of theirs... Or are you saying that they ~are~ more serious and as an English speaker.. should not step on their toes by spawning a ?spanish? charri?

I don't think that is quite true either...

[SumBum]

For myself, I'm glad to see the clarification about using dictionaries/translators. When I saw it mentioned in the other thread that translators are a CRB, it completely shut me down to the idea of ever trying a different language.

I can understand the concern about players creating chars in zones where they have no intention of communicating in that language, but I think we're discussing two separate situations here. Players who legitimately want to learn another language shouldn't be discouraged by saying they can't use tools that are no different than other out-of-game tools (calculators, notepad, etc).

[Lyd]

Okay…I will attempt to summarize thus far…it sounds like it is okay to use dictionaries but it is highly recommended not to use the Alta Babelfish online translator. Especially for conversational purposes as it leaves much to be desired in accuracy and possibly could produce something offensive culturally to the native speakers.

I understand and understood this and will continue to avoid the Alta Babelfish online translator.

I, personally, have found that using online translators impedes the learning of language, as there is no problem-solving process involved when using them.

I think this is helping to clear up the confusion. Would it be possible to post a small blurb in regards to what is considered CRB and the recommended use of dictionaries in the wiki…or new character page? Should this thread be formally moved to the Suggestions first?

[El_Skwidd]

The way I've always understood it is that if you understand a language to the point where you have a grasp of the grammar and are using a dictionary, online or otherwise, to fill in the gaps in your vocabulary, then you're all good. If you've got next to no experience in said language and are relying on an online translator to get any meaning from what you see, you're likely going to struggle pretty badly playing a character in that language. Is that to say no, don't do it? I don't think so, but I certainly wouldn't spawn a character in the Chinese zone and hope to get through it on Google searches.

So the crux of the discussion is the difference between a translator and a dictionary, where the former attempts (often unsuccessfully) to translate grammar and meaning across languages, and the latter only translates words and their definitions.

The only language-related CRB I know of, unless the rules have been changed, is this: I as El_Skwidd the player know English and a good bit of Spanish (enough for lame conversations and to play Cantr... 5 years of study and 1 year of not studying at all). If Joe Bob, my character spawned in an English area, were to wash up on the shore of the Spanish area, it would be against the rules for Joe Bob to speak Spanish to the locals even though El_Skwidd could do so. Joe Bob has never seen or heard Spanish in his life, so there's no way he could legitimately know it. He could learn it through gestures and painstaking "conversations" with the natives, and that isn't illegal.

Hope that helps (and is accurate).

[Lyd]

Yes, it helps and is very accurate, I think. Nice analogy for describing a language related CRB, El Skwidd, (Joe Bob, hehe) and I agree with and believe that I was working from the same frame of reference as you have described when I made a Spanish charry.

Luckily, I had predominately-native speakers as teachers for my 120 college hours of Spanish and 2 years of high school Spanish. I am by no means…nor have I ever considered myself fluent in Spanish. Nevertheless, I am familiar with basic sentence structure. On a bad day, I can state my name, ask for a name, say I am hungry and emote as a very smiley charry. On a good day, who knows maybe more! The point is that I have learned more vocabulary just by playing the game in the Spanish Language Group. Is my level of competency considered enough by staff? I do not know, the CRB “demons” have not pm’d me yet. I do know that my Spanish charry is alive and well and has just turned 40!

So…the crux of the discussion is not only what you have mentioned but also who determines the level of experience in a language necessary to play the game in that language group? I would think it is as it stands…you. What I was hoping for by posting this thread, is a more specific explanation of when and when not to use translators (as you have provided ) to be posted on the front door of the page in which one creates a new character.

[El_Skwidd]

Glad I could help

I think that's a good suggestion that would take very little time to implement.

[Piscator]

I think the reason why there is no official statement on the front page is, that there is not really a need for an official guideline. If a character is constantly uttering some garbage created by an online-translator, he will end up being ignored by other players and the problem resolves itself.

That may be annoying for the players that have to cope with the situation, but it is not very disruptive to the game. The only difference to a regular annoying character is that this person would be annoying for ooc reasons.

People shouldn't be encouraged to play in a language they don't know, but I think to prohibit it explicitly is not necessary. Most people should have enough common sence to know that playing a character under these circumstances is no fun at all.

[Lyd]

Agreed. Point taken.

[Frits]

I keep wishing there was a clearly worded protocol posted to help those of us who would like to spawn a character in a language area different from our first language. One that clearly states what is considered CRB and what is allowed.

I was unaware that the use of a translator (mass media or person) was frowned upon or not allowed when I created my first character in a different language area.

Since this protocol doesn't exist it would have to be developped by someone. Actually i have my doubts a protocol would suit all players since there are really a lot and they come from all over the world.
I've looked up words in both foreign and my native language, that will never be considered crb. Players won't notice it was looked up like you didn't notice me looking up "native language". This translates as mothertongue from dutch, i bet english speakers would be able to guess what i mean but i don't think it's a regular way of saying native language.

I've played for 2 years and i've witnessed the use of translating programs but not very often. It's disturbing cos when players notice they are led into thinking OOC, like that player just went OOC and used some software, software is not IG. Hopefully translators will become better in time. It's not only recognizable but also often incomprehensible.
When (or if) people feel they need to use a translator keep sentences extremely short like: "I need a key" and hit enter. Or "i have no resources" and hit enter. If it's "I would have enough resources for my ship after we finish your project but still not enough iron for a lock" the translator will not produce what you want.