What can God never see?
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- SekoETC
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I also find it problematic that people are threatened with hell, when Christianity is supposed to free you from fear through the knowledge that your deeds will always be insignificant, and you are saved only through mercy and faith. I wouldn't want to end up in an afterlife where no one regrets their bad deeds and continues to act like a shithead. And let's face it, there's a shithead in all of us. I would feel relieved if after death there was just peace, sleeping without dreams. The thought of eternity is just too big to grasp.
About the contradictions in the Bible, yeah, there are a lot. But also there are a lot of translation errors and typos. It wouldn't take much for four to become forty, and they discovered an error like this in for example Goliath's height. The repetition of things is often due to following a pattern that is repeated in different parts of the scriptures. Also the numeric values of the Hebrew letters can carry a meaning. You'd think that if you need to make the numbers add up correctly or to use the right number of words or sentences to follow a pattern, like in a poem, it might limit expression. Also some people say that the numerical information would prove of God's involvement because if people had to write them in intentionally and they didn't have computers, it would take damn lot of counting and planning.
I don't think God approves of rape, a lot of the things in the Old Testament just reflect the culture of that day. And they were pretty simple people. They thought they could make deals with God. Also in the eyes of God, everybody is equal so it wouldn't mean a damn if one was a slave and one was a master, they would still be just humans. Also a human life compared to eternity is very short, so if there is suffering or injustice, the memories would fade or be wiped away in the afterlife. And if God can see where different threads of choices lead into, he can tell people to kill other people and this may prevent more evil from happening in the future.
I can't write coherently. I hope someone figures out what I'm getting at.
About the contradictions in the Bible, yeah, there are a lot. But also there are a lot of translation errors and typos. It wouldn't take much for four to become forty, and they discovered an error like this in for example Goliath's height. The repetition of things is often due to following a pattern that is repeated in different parts of the scriptures. Also the numeric values of the Hebrew letters can carry a meaning. You'd think that if you need to make the numbers add up correctly or to use the right number of words or sentences to follow a pattern, like in a poem, it might limit expression. Also some people say that the numerical information would prove of God's involvement because if people had to write them in intentionally and they didn't have computers, it would take damn lot of counting and planning.
I don't think God approves of rape, a lot of the things in the Old Testament just reflect the culture of that day. And they were pretty simple people. They thought they could make deals with God. Also in the eyes of God, everybody is equal so it wouldn't mean a damn if one was a slave and one was a master, they would still be just humans. Also a human life compared to eternity is very short, so if there is suffering or injustice, the memories would fade or be wiped away in the afterlife. And if God can see where different threads of choices lead into, he can tell people to kill other people and this may prevent more evil from happening in the future.
I can't write coherently. I hope someone figures out what I'm getting at.
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- DylPickle
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Belief in God is a waste of time, energy, and faith.
Why have faith in nothing, when you can instead have faith in the important things that are physically around you. Faith in your family, friends, yourself, mankind. One hundred times more productive, especially because it's often bilateral. If you believe in someone, then that person has that much more of a chance to better themselves.
Believing in the potential of others is just so much more selfless and socially rewarding than praying to empty space.
Why have faith in nothing, when you can instead have faith in the important things that are physically around you. Faith in your family, friends, yourself, mankind. One hundred times more productive, especially because it's often bilateral. If you believe in someone, then that person has that much more of a chance to better themselves.
Believing in the potential of others is just so much more selfless and socially rewarding than praying to empty space.
- Tiamo
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DylPickle wrote:Belief in God is a waste of time, energy, and faith.
I disagree. The vast majority of people need the belief in a higher power guiding and protecting us all, otherwise they feel forlorn. Others need some kind of explanation of the unknown (like what happens after you die), so it won't be felt as scary, possibly a threat. Religion fills those needs, irrespective of whether anything people believe is true or not.
Religion is one way of fulfilling people's basic need for feeling safe.
Of course there are other ways, and not everyone needs to be reassured in the same amount, but religion is definitely useful to many people. If religion were useless it would have disappeared into oblivion naturally, since noone would have bothered.
- fishfin
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SekoETC wrote:I also find it problematic that people are threatened with hell, when Christianity is supposed to free you from fear through the knowledge that your deeds will always be insignificant, and you are saved only through mercy and faith. I wouldn't want to end up in an afterlife where no one regrets their bad deeds and continues to act like a shithead. And let's face it, there's a shithead in all of us. I would feel relieved if after death there was just peace, sleeping without dreams. The thought of eternity is just too big to grasp.
I don't know anyone who became a Christian for fear of burning in Hell... I also highly disagree with the people who stand on street corners yelling at people that they are going to go to Hell, people who decide to become a christian because of fear generally are just doing it for show.
SekoETC wrote:About the contradictions in the Bible, yeah, there are a lot. But also there are a lot of translation errors and typos. It wouldn't take much for four to become forty, and they discovered an error like this in for example Goliath's height. The repetition of things is often due to following a pattern that is repeated in different parts of the scriptures. Also the numeric values of the Hebrew letters can carry a meaning. You'd think that if you need to make the numbers add up correctly or to use the right number of words or sentences to follow a pattern, like in a poem, it might limit expression. Also some people say that the numerical information would prove of God's involvement because if people had to write them in intentionally and they didn't have computers, it would take damn lot of counting and planning.
A little bit of background about the Bible:
The old testament is taken from the Jewish Torah to give background information and general history on the new testament. It is made up of historical records that were kept by the Jewish people (there are some, like The Book of the Histories of the Kings of Isreal, that have been lost), writings of varies prophets and several books of songs/poems. (The Catholics have a couple more books here than other flavors of Christianity, mostly having to do with things that happened closer to the time of Christ.)
The new testament is made of of books selected by the council of something (I'm too lazy to go look up the name). After Jesus died Christianity kind of went BOMB! and everybody wanted to write there own book about it for years afterwards, many of these seem like (reading them now) they just wanted to be bigger and more spectacular than the book that the other guy wrote. This council had several tests in deciding which books to use including 'Is there evidence that shows that this book was written by who it claims to be written by?' 'When did that person live, did they see things first hand or hear about them years later?' 'Does this book agree with other books that we have already established match the criteria?' (For example, many modern books, like The Da- Vince Code, complain about the book of Judas not being included, the book of Judas was not included because it was written at least a hundred years after Christ died, so could not have been first hand or written by who it claims to be written by.) Luke, Mark, and Paul are exceptions to the first-hand rule; Mark was let in because Mark was Peter's disciple and it is thought that Mark wrote for Peter (Mark's writing was also one of the very earliest works written), Luke was let in because his books seemed to be well researched and agreed with other earlier writings, and I can't remember why Paul was let in and I'm too lazy to go find out.
And, yes, there aren't any originals for any of these writings left today. And sometimes there are various version (like some versions of Mark exclude the first couple verses and there are several different endings of Mark). In some places the meaning of the origional language is not clear or is unknown (like SekoETC said) and in almost all manuscripts an older version of the language is used.
SekoETC wrote:I don't think God approves of rape, a lot of the things in the Old Testament just reflect the culture of that day. And they were pretty simple people. They thought they could make deals with God. Also in the eyes of God, everybody is equal so it wouldn't mean a damn if one was a slave and one was a master, they would still be just humans. Also a human life compared to eternity is very short, so if there is suffering or injustice, the memories would fade or be wiped away in the afterlife. And if God can see where different threads of choices lead into, he can tell people to kill other people and this may prevent more evil from happening in the future.
God doesn't approve of rape, when David did it he got in trouble with the judge/prophet of the time, Nathan.
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- Chris
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fishfin wrote:God doesn't approve of rape, when David did it he got in trouble with the judge/prophet of the time, Nathan.
The God of the Bible committed genocide and species extermination with the Great Flood. It makes Hitler and Stalin look like warm puppies. An omnipotent god would have the power to make things better in any number of more peaceful ways, but he chose killing and devastation again and again. It reflects the limited imagination of the people who created him and their times.
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Chris wrote:fishfin wrote:God doesn't approve of rape, when David did it he got in trouble with the judge/prophet of the time, Nathan.
The God of the Bible committed genocide and species extermination with the Great Flood. It makes Hitler and Stalin look like warm puppies. An omnipotent god would have the power to make things better in any number of more peaceful ways, but he chose killing and devastation again and again. It reflects the limited imagination of the people who created him and their times.
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Chris wrote:fishfin wrote:God doesn't approve of rape, when David did it he got in trouble with the judge/prophet of the time, Nathan.
The God of the Bible committed genocide and species extermination with the Great Flood. It makes Hitler and Stalin look like warm puppies. An omnipotent god would have the power to make things better in any number of more peaceful ways, but he chose killing and devastation again and again. It reflects the limited imagination of the people who created him and their times.
You say the flood was Genocide? He gave them a chance. He had Moses down here building a boat. Nobody believed him so it is their fault.
- SekoETC
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Yeah, God gives people a chance at least once, often several times. The people who were laughing at Noah and thinking he must be nuts remind me of a lot of people in real life. But I seem to remember that God felt sad about killing so many people and promised not to make another flood that big. I read something about the rainbow(s) in a scientific article, I think it was something about droplets freezing in the atmosphere and causing especially spectacular and long lasting rainbows. (I remember someone in the past using the sentence about God putting the rainbow in the sky after the Flood as an example to prove that the Bible is not to be taken seriously because it would be impossible for rainbows not to be seen during the years mankind had existed before the Flood.)
Think about Sodom and Gomorrah too, there was haggling about the number of righteous people that would need to be found to save the towns here but they just couldn't find any more than Loot and his family. Some people say that the sin of those towns wasn't that they had gay sex but because they treated visitors badly, which is a serious offense in the cultures of that region. Another story that's not in the Bible described how a traveller got hit by someone in Sodom or Gomorrah and the guy got the nerves to ask him payment for bloodletting. So they went to court and the judge being local was on the local guy's side. So the traveller hit the judge and said something like, since the judge now owes me for bloodletting and I owe you the same then if the judge pays you then we're all even.
Think about Sodom and Gomorrah too, there was haggling about the number of righteous people that would need to be found to save the towns here but they just couldn't find any more than Loot and his family. Some people say that the sin of those towns wasn't that they had gay sex but because they treated visitors badly, which is a serious offense in the cultures of that region. Another story that's not in the Bible described how a traveller got hit by someone in Sodom or Gomorrah and the guy got the nerves to ask him payment for bloodletting. So they went to court and the judge being local was on the local guy's side. So the traveller hit the judge and said something like, since the judge now owes me for bloodletting and I owe you the same then if the judge pays you then we're all even.
Not-so-sad panda
- formerly known as hf
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No.Tiamo wrote:DylPickle wrote:Belief in God is a waste of time, energy, and faith.
I disagree. The vast majority of people need the belief in a higher power guiding and protecting us all, otherwise they feel forlorn. Others need some kind of explanation of the unknown (like what happens after you die), so it won't be felt as scary, possibly a threat. Religion fills those needs, irrespective of whether anything people believe is true or not.
Religion is one way of fulfilling people's basic need for feeling safe.
Of course there are other ways, and not everyone needs to be reassured in the same amount, but religion is definitely useful to many people. If religion were useless it would have disappeared into oblivion naturally, since noone would have bothered.
Ignorance is, never, ever, a Good Thing.
The belief in a 'higher power' is dangerous. It means people irrationalise-away all forms of abuse on varying levels. Nor is there any need for Answers to The Unknown. We should teach people to be awed by that which they don't know, to find the fun in asking, and getting the (difficult) answers to (difficult) questions.
Instead, people are taught to expect and believe in easy answers. The fairy tales of astrologers, priests and shaman. The Unknown gets explained away. This may make it less fearful, but it's a false sense of security. Which is worse than no sense of security and fakes an awareness we don't have. Which is also dangerous.
The wonders of the universe are infinite. What is so amazing, is that these marvels are natural, and are not the will of any higher power. That the vast combination of extremely detailed, specific mechanisms can be understood without the need for a higher power.
Putting all this (imagine me gesturing with wide open arms to the world around me) down to higher powers takes the fun out of it, takes the intrigue out of it, takes the excitement out of it. Certainity may make us feel warm and cosy. But the certainty of religion is a lie.
Uncertainity may be uncomfortable, but western society should be more than mature enough to come to terms with that uncomfort without the , seemingly nice and fuzzy - but fundamentally flawed - warmth of bedtime fairy tales of yore. We should, and can be, mature enough to take comfort in the universe on its own terms, not the terms we place upon it. That means facing uncertainty and fear, not shying away beneath the bed covers.
Also, a belief in the afterlife is similarly dangerous. As with the higher power, it allows people to argue-away various dubious acts, banal and extreme, which they would otherwise not have committed. Moreso, it takes the fun out of life. When I die, that will be it. There will be no angels. nor will there be any fire. So, whilst I am here, I'm going to enjoy it, and I'm going to work hard at this only life I have.
Also, I am geek (and thus am legion) and have been playing old games recently, and want an excuse to post from one of them this poem I quite like;
I sit in my cubicle, here on the motherworld.
When I die, they will put my body in a box and
dispose of it in the cold ground.
And in all the million ages to come, I will never
breathe or laugh or twitch again.
So won't you run and play with me here among the
teeming mass of humanity?
The universe has spared us this moment.
-- Anonymous : Datalinks
- Tiamo
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fkahf,
religion is not the same as a church. Religion is an attempt to explain the unknown, the supernatural. Churches are human organizations trying to use religion for gaining power over people, by fixing it in a book, adding a moral system and saying this is the one and only belief, the Truth. Churches are political instruments. It is churches who try to suppress human curiosity and everything else you are talking about.
Religion is not fixed, it is personal, different for every human being. And it can very well be combined with human curiosity. In fact, your beliefs are the result of your curiosity, your search for answers about the unknown.
Religion can be useful for humans, as can be curiosity. Churches usually are only useful for the church leaders.
religion is not the same as a church. Religion is an attempt to explain the unknown, the supernatural. Churches are human organizations trying to use religion for gaining power over people, by fixing it in a book, adding a moral system and saying this is the one and only belief, the Truth. Churches are political instruments. It is churches who try to suppress human curiosity and everything else you are talking about.
Religion is not fixed, it is personal, different for every human being. And it can very well be combined with human curiosity. In fact, your beliefs are the result of your curiosity, your search for answers about the unknown.
Religion can be useful for humans, as can be curiosity. Churches usually are only useful for the church leaders.
- Chris
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A lot of people are able to compartmentalize their beliefs. They believe in religion for things beyond the reach or control of today's science. But for day-to-day practical life, they embrace science. These people have no problem living in the modern world. I think that they are wrong about god(s), but it doesn't make much difference. They also gain some benefits in comfort and social connectedness with other believers.
The people who are dangerous are the religious fundamentalists who reject modern life and want to turn back the clock to some mythical past that never really existed. They think that their sacred texts are the last word on everything -- sanitation, nutrition, human rights, sexuality, and so on.
The people who are dangerous are the religious fundamentalists who reject modern life and want to turn back the clock to some mythical past that never really existed. They think that their sacred texts are the last word on everything -- sanitation, nutrition, human rights, sexuality, and so on.
- formerly known as hf
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Tiamo & Chris.
Sure, the Church / organised religion as instituional actors and individuals in their own workings-through of religion are different things.
But, they cannot be seperated. People work-through their relgions and beliefs in their position vis-a-vis the organisation of that religion, whether with, against, or variations thereon of the general movement of said organisation.
I used to claim no real problem with religious people per se. Only organised religion.
As time has gone on, I have less and less patience or respect for people who variously 'compartmentalise' or moderate their beliefs. Religion is at its worst when it is mobilised en masse.
But. Religion, or supernatural belifs, are just as bad when mobilised on the indiviudal level to excuse / justify / remove guilt from everyday (often banal, sometimes horrendous) abuse and discrimination.
I'm happy to wear my predjudice on my sleeve. I despise religious beliefs, on any level. I despise them in the form of institutions and I despise them in individuals. They are never, ever useful. There is always a better alternative. There is - simply - no excuse.
Sure, the Church / organised religion as instituional actors and individuals in their own workings-through of religion are different things.
But, they cannot be seperated. People work-through their relgions and beliefs in their position vis-a-vis the organisation of that religion, whether with, against, or variations thereon of the general movement of said organisation.
I used to claim no real problem with religious people per se. Only organised religion.
As time has gone on, I have less and less patience or respect for people who variously 'compartmentalise' or moderate their beliefs. Religion is at its worst when it is mobilised en masse.
But. Religion, or supernatural belifs, are just as bad when mobilised on the indiviudal level to excuse / justify / remove guilt from everyday (often banal, sometimes horrendous) abuse and discrimination.
I'm happy to wear my predjudice on my sleeve. I despise religious beliefs, on any level. I despise them in the form of institutions and I despise them in individuals. They are never, ever useful. There is always a better alternative. There is - simply - no excuse.
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Religions serve many useful purposes. Yes, they are not perfect, but nothing in this world is. Without religion, I think atrocities would in fact be increasing, and the world would be ruled by tyrants.
There are so many things wrong with your arguments HF. I'm not going to go into it all, but I think you must have a very personal reason to be thinking the way you do. Your ideas are very narrow minded and I am glad that you are confined to the internet.
There are so many things wrong with your arguments HF. I'm not going to go into it all, but I think you must have a very personal reason to be thinking the way you do. Your ideas are very narrow minded and I am glad that you are confined to the internet.
- Stan
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- formerly known as hf
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Do you know anyone who isn't a hypocrite?Stan wrote:Nevermind, HF, I see that you too are a hypocrite. Welcome to the club.
I've yet to meet anyone's whose belief system or politics aren't full of gaping holes to be picked, poked, prodded and ripped. Myself included.
But isn't that half the fun?
Sekar: It's not a personal thing, nothing in particular I can tie it down to. I have yet to come across any form of religion which doesn't fundamentally annoy the fuck out of me. For a whole host of reasons, some I've explained here, but many more.
I could rant (for that is all this is, it's hardly that mythical thing know as reasoned argument) for a long time about it. It's hardly the internet that brings me say this either - I'm more than forthright about this with the people I meet.
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