What can God never see?

[Lyd]

LMAO HF! That is so antediluvian!

[SekoETC]

Actually, the flood didn't have to cover the whole globe, only the known world. Several civilizations have stories of a great flood and it is likely that for example if a large enough meteor strikes, it would create a huge tsunami that would go around the globe several times. Also if lots of particles were released into the air, it would be likely to cause a lot of raining.

[Tiamo]

Even flooding the 'known' world is physically impossible. There just isn't enough water on our earth to do that.

A meteor causing a mega-tsunami would leave a mark that must be easily noticeable on the surface of the earth. There is no such mark, except the possible remains of a gigantic meteor impact in the Gulf of Mexico, but that would have been several hundred million years ago. Men didn't exist by then, it was the time of the dinosaurs. And earth looked quite different by then, i think the mediterranean didn't even exist at that time.

There must have been some big floodings, probably several all over the globe. But not the worldwide disaster that is described in the bible.
I think the story is a big exaggeration, meant to tell the reader that faith in god might save you from natural disaster, where disbelief will make you a victim of it.
Just scaring people, so they will be encouraged to believe.

[formerly known as hf]

Welll HF you can believe that but there is no exact way to prove that the world is a certain age. there is now way to prove that there hasn't been a worldwide flood. I believe it has happened, but you don't have to.

You're getting the burden of proof backwards.

No needs to DISprove supernatural / religious beliefs.

Summary: The burden on proof is always with those who believe in the supernatural.

The teapot in orbit is a famous example. It's analagous with tooth faries.

I don't believe in tooth fairies. That makes me a-toothfariest. Neither do I believe in Santa Claus. That makes me a-santaclausist.

But I don't have to mention that. I don't have to defend that position. I don't have to DISproove the existence of tooth faries or santa claus.

I don't believe in goblins. Or gnomes living at the bottom of the garden. neither do I believe in the ability of witchdoctors to reanimate the dead. i don't believe in magic or witchcraft.

The list of things about which we have to be agnostic is infinite. But none of that is particularly controversial.

Going back to the teapot orbiting between the Earth and Mars. I can claim it's true until I'm blue in the face. I can gesticulate, preach and give sermons upon the wonders of this teapot. But I can't proove it.

The default position in regards to the teapot is to be agnostic. We can't proove its existence, but neither can it be DISprooved. It might be there, but overwhelming evidence and knowledge would suggest otherwise. Indeed, in such a case, a true agnostic position seems a bit silly - to size of the might exist is so infintesimitly small, that in this case is leaning so far that it may as well be a- (or non-) teapotism.

The onus is not upon me to DISproove the teapot, the orbiting-teapot believers have no grounds to demand I disproove them.

Suggesting that I can't DISproove a world-engufling flood suggests that there might have been one is akin to suggesting that because I can't DISproove that Zeus lives on top of mount Olympus (he just hides very well) he might exist, and, of course, that because I can't DISproove the orbiting teapot - it might exist,

Saying "you can't disproove it" just isn't an argument. It has no relevance or weight.


The default position in regards to the supernatural (including religion) should thus be scepticism. We would readily call the orbiting teapot believer a mad person (or at least a bit weird), we would call an adult who believed in the tooth fairy a fantasist. We would call believers in Zeus and the Ancient Greek panthenon backwards.

But, of course, a man-like God who floods the whole earth, creates the most intricate, detailed and fascinating fossil records for no other reason to decieve, who propogated the most amazing diversity in humans from just two original people in only a few thousand years, who has control over everything, but is never directly observable. That's not fantasy. That's religion. And must be taken with all seriousness, and is, of course, the default belief.

Because, at the end of the day, we can't DISproove it...

It never ceases to amaze me that, even after all we know, the default position still tends to be in belief in the supernatural, whether it be religion, astrology, magic or teapots...

[Jos Elkink]

Hey, HF, without references, this post is a little too close to plagiarism ...

Richard Dawkins, Militant atheism - a brilliant speech, though, and I certainly totally agree with him (or with HF, by implication).

TED in general is a pretty cool site, and I bet other Dawkins talks are probably worthwhile as well.

[formerly known as hf]

The 'burden of proof lies with those who believe in the supernatural' doesn't lie with Dawkins, it's pretty much the jist of the enlightenment. Why it hasn't stuck boggles the mind.

But I knew I was re-hashing the teapot (which I'm sure is familiar to a lot of people as coming from Bertrand Russell, the forerunner to the later FSM and Invisible Pink Unicorns) and tooth fairy examples from somewhere, but couldn't place it - thanks Jos, it's good to hear the speech - I must've read that speech some time ago, I just couldn't remember where from, and Google wasn't helping beyond endless Russell links.

[Voltenion]

note: please don't take this as slandering Christianity. it's hard not to. The way you talk and such...

No offence dude, but don't try to make points off of facts you know nothing about. Most US Christians are incredibly ignorant of other religions. Ok...So? I'm Portuguese not american. Besides even here there are those types of churchs that exist just for the money, if seen them and laughed too. What I said is that protestant christianity is what I think is most right. Besides (please, I know this sounds offensive but don't take it hard, kay? ) Most US christians and NOT christians are incredibly ignorant of other religions or any other stuff that has happened or is happening in the world.

I believe in part portions of every one are true (for example, there may have been a flood-like event, but not where the whole world was engulfed, and plus there was definetly no Ark. How the heck can an ark hold ALL the species of the planets?)
Ok we can forget this Ark not being abble to hold all the animals of the world right now. Not trying to make points off of facts I don't know nothing about (LOL) but if you think with me: God told Noah to build the Ark. God said he'd help him to build the Ark. So that means, if the Ark did exist and the flood too and Noah made it, why wouldn't the MAKER OF EVERYTHING(!!!!!) be abble to stuff some little stupid animals in an Ark? I mean, maybe I'm being stupid, but he is the God... Oh well...About the dark-white thing. Let's think with me again? The temperature of the places caused their changes of color and such other things... Living beings do adapt.

You don't know your God (at least I think). I said I did.
You call your God, God. WTF? It seems you are the one who don't know what you talking about.*nods arrogantly, like that teacher he hates. Then wonders why's everyone reading his memories* ...Wharever, I hate seeming arrogant. But please reade the bible before joking arround about it. God himself, said to everyone to call him "God" as that is what he is. (that's where the big "g" comes from. It is his name ).

The Bible, I think, just says stuff about what happened and what to do. Hinduism has many gods, more believable in my opinion, and they each have distinct personalities. Hinduisms doesn't have many gods. It has 3 for every people that believe in hinduism...Lol, I'll explain what I know of their religion: Everyone is entitled to create their own gods. They can create 3. And then they worship 3 other that are the biggest ones...That elephant with many arms for example... Jews have some god not familiar with them. Jews are christians who don't believe that Jesus was the promised prophet...If I were jew I'd stop. As the promised son wouldn't take so much time to come.*shrugs* Muslims have Allah. I really know few things about Muslims, but it's like Gran said. It's "the same god" but worship from other ideals...And they don't think Jesus was the son of God too.

ALSO: I hate that people slander Muslim, America is a rascist, hypocritical, messed up country so I blame them for altering the peoples views. It also glorifies Christianity when the US is supposed to be a state where all are EQUAL.
Yes. It's sad, but that's true. But that's not God or Jesus or many christians fault... It's their own fault. And many people confuse terrorist with muslims(altough they use their bible to make bombist brave enough suicide and use it for many other things). We shouldn't blame them entirely for the terrorist stuff going on.

Also, i read somewhere over there if God was a male or a woman? Shall we follow my mind again? (lol I'm so sorry for seeming a stupid arrogant) God made Adam to he's own image. Adam was a male... End of question. And if you have problems with him being white, Maybe God is black then. He made Adam black too. And Eve would be slighty whiter, but still black. If you see a couple like this and they have like 4 sons, if you stare at them you'll notice the younger kid is whiter than the older kid. (ok, now I have the right to be arrogant!! Lol, not!)

Science is really strange. And I do believe in many things that they say...But science is not the same day by day, and that's why. You prove gravity today, an idiot will unprove it tomorrow. Science as never proved gods existed and so hasn't proved gods do not exist.

And the bible was made in and old age. You have to understand many things are from that old point of view... If you have so much trouble believing that a flood can cover the entire world, it maybe covered only the section Noah could see...He looked arround and saw no land, so, in he's mind: "The entirely world is under water! oh my buda!"...God told him to have faith on him, get a boat and warn everyone that a flood was coming. In portuguese we call it "hiperbole". The art of making things seem big and very important or the contrary. Many of the text are simbolic and people don't get it. They read: "the world was covered by water" and it is in their mind. It was an "hiperbole" then, for you anti-entireworldflooded,lol. Oh and there are more giant meteor marks than that one of the Gulf of Mexico. One is a portuguese area, I've kinda seen it. It's really gigantic. Some people also belive that meteor might have been the cause for the extinsion of the Dino's.

I don't want to bore you to death by reading more... \o And I'm not arrogant!! xD

[Voltenion]

(OOT:stupid little bot, huh? )

[buddyhall]

dam double posts

[buddyhall]

scienctests mostly just guess and say it is true.

Because the scientific method is a load of crap, right?

Because the scientific method is a load of crap???
The scientific method of what ? Thats a pretty broad statment I'd have to agree with it at first but then there are some systems that work quite well
at this point in time that statement would be correct but with time who knows.

[Piscator]

I always wondered if Adam and Eve were the only humans created by god. If yes, how did the third generation of humans come into existence?

(Perhaps that's the reason why we're all a bunch of retards )

(Compared to god of course)

[buddyhall]

I always wondered if Adam and Eve were the only humans created by god. If yes, how did the third generation of humans come into existence?

(Perhaps that's the reason why we're all a bunch of retards )

(Compared to god of course)

LMFAO!

[toon]

I saw this guy in person. He made alot of sense and he's the best I've seen. the video is a little sketchy, but other than that, I know the guy is smart.

[Money]

I take the bible as not sometimes exact. Take this in one part it says that a blink of Gods eyes is like 10000 years to us. I take this to mean that 7 days to God is much diffrent to us. Meaning that he could have created the earth in 7 of his days and not 7 of our human earth days.

[CantrFreak]

I thought the Church wrote the Bible? In that case I'm sure'd theyed omit things not useful to them.

By the way, I am Hindu, at least, due to my lineage. xD Elephant-headed god with many arms? roflz. Close but not close exactly. The elephant kid isn't even a main god.

I doubt we create three of our gods too. I mean, we may since we're like an uber-old religion, one of the oldest in the world. We have way more than just three "mainstream" ones. Way... more.

But urm... people originated in -Africa-. Wouldn't it make sense Adam and Eve, if they existed, where african in color? Well, since the Church glorified slaverly back then thats maybe why they could have been omitted if they existed... but also, 2 people started the entire world? The evolutionist theory might be good for those that believe in creationism. xD

Religion in my opinion (like Christianity, and others) were made to explain the universe back then when knowledge was limited. We ourselves claim the Greek religion was made to explain, why can't ours then?