Petition to restructure the CR's restrictiveness

[Cdls]

This is not a “lets be an asshole and trash the PD or other departments” topic, you emo asshats have your own topics for such things, this is a topic to try and increase CANTR's playability.


There are topics that are asking what things within the game are causing players to leave, new players to quit and in general, what needs to be fixed. The answer lies within the CRB and the way to fix it is to change it to a more realistic model to be followed, or to change the game mechanics so that it isn't a problem.

The idealism of the CR (in its simplest form) as taken from WIKI:
You are not allowed to have more than one character in the same organization.
You are not allowed to have more than two characters on the same location.
You are not allowed to ask friends out-of-character to help you with something in-character, or to quickly log in to help.
You are not allowed to attack the same character by several of your own characters.
You are not allowed to spread maps or other in-game information by out-of-character means, like your own website.


Yet, the game allows up to 15 characters per player, and the spawning system is so horrible that its quite possible to have quite a few next to each other. This brings up another issue, taken straight from the main page:

Any role you can imagine you can play in this game and the challenge is in playing it consistently, and in achieving the goals you set for your characters individually.

How is this really possible when the CR prevents you from being able to do that when the game itself spawns you so close together? For example, lets say you have two characters that spawn within a couple towns of each other, both with different viewpoints. The same organization (in this example we will call them purple knights) is a driving force in both towns. The two characters see that by joining said organization, they could further their own individual goals. Yet, the CR states:

You are not allowed to have more than one character in the same organization

This greatly reduces the playability in my eyes, and Im sure many could agree. This is just one example, I have many more but dont want to turn this into some huge essay and such, but I do think the CR and the way it is handled should be changed, or at least modified, so that the game can reach its true potential.

[wichita]

Someone with much more free time than me can dredge up the links to previous discussions of this topic. (Where is Sho when you need him?)

Bottom line: No.

The CR is just fine as it is. It isn't that difficult to spread your characters out father apart than five towns away. Unless you get spawned on that little five location turd of an island I won't name right now, in which case, yeah you got screwed. Even then, you should have little problem arranging transport out of there with a pirate crew. They're a dime a dozen in the area. I think it's where they film Lost, actually.

Any role you can imagine you can play in this game and the challenge is in playing it consistently, and in achieving the goals you set for your characters individually.

While I agree that this is difficult (and possibly bordering on false advertisement, I am starting to decide) I disagree that it is a result of the CR. In fact, this is rather inherent to the definition of the CR, as it contains the concept of individuality within the statement. The main limitations to fulfilling that promise as advertised are limitations induced by game mechanics, which is a different discussion entirely.

In your scenario, you can easily avoid joining the two branches of the organization by dreaming up another goal for your second character that does not involve joining the purple knights. If you really have to have your character hooked up with such an organization to achieve a life goal, then move on. Wanderlust can cure many a potential CRB. It's a big world out there.

[SekoETC]

Some of those are just rules of thumb that make things easier for you. If the amount of characters in one organization is not restricted to one then where would you draw the line? "My characters just happened to spawn in the same place and so they joined the same organization, now it's going to war and I'm gonna have to hit and drag people with both of my characters." Joining in a multi-location organization might not count because your characters are not interacting but do you really want to play too similar characters? They should start developing different personalities and maybe one of them would notice that the organization is corrupt.

It's very unlikely that more than two of your characters would have a legitimate reason to be in the same town at the same time. But if there is then PD will listen to you. Naturally you'll be kept an eye on but if you're doing nothing wrong, what does it matter?

You are not allowed to ask friends out-of-character to help you with something in-character, or to quickly log in to help.

I'm personally a bit iffy about this one. If you and your friend have characters in the same town and pirates attack, wouldn't it be natural that you both wake up when it happens? People wouldn't just stand around and let things happen. Cantr is supposed to be a slow-paced game but dragging, hitting and undocking do not follow that logic. the attackers still have the element of surprise on their side and are likely all awake due to planning, so unless the defending party is lucky enough to have someone online, it's likely that it's going to take a while before anyone wakes up, and even if someone did, they would have no actual way of alerting other people ingame, unless those other people are already logged in. So I think it should be legit to tell people they should log in if it's something urgent and what makes it urgent is that the offending party is online. But asking assistance to drag or attack a sleeper would not be legit. Also alerting people who are not within hearing range of your character would be wrong. There was a suggestion for a thing that sends an email when you're attacked, I think that would make sense.

The other two points are pretty self-explanatory.

[Cdls]

This is what this topic is about, to address the flaws in the CR. And wichita, I disagree, the mechanics and CR go hand in hand since the CR has no leniency towards the faultiness of the game mechanics.

I am well aware that the PD handles things on a case by case basis, but that is because I have been a part of CAntr for a long time. This whole topic is directed towards people who are newer, who dont know this.

In my opinion it should be worded that it is possible to join the same organization as long as it is clear you are not doing so to further one or both characters as one entity. And this is just the first example, there are others.

While I agree that this is difficult (and possibly bordering on false advertisement, I am starting to decide) I disagree that it is a result of the CR. In fact, this is rather inherent to the definition of the CR, as it contains the concept of individuality within the statement. The main limitations to fulfilling that promise as advertised are limitations induced by game mechanics, which is a different discussion entirely.

As I stated, the CR and game mechanics go hand in hand since its the game mechanics that place you in these "compromising" situations. The game description is quite misleading and is probably turning people away since they see once in game that what the initially read is not really the case.


Let me clarify my opinon

The CR is a good idea, and should be upheld. There do need to be some changed made to it however, and one is that players should be allowed complete and total control over what and where there players interact. All this "you cant do this, you cant do that" stuff needs to be removed, or at least something put in stating that the following only applies if it is clear you are doing it to further yourself (ie your chars coming together to form some super pirate group or so on)

The turnover rate on this game is horrible from what I have seen, and most people have their chars sitting around doing nothing. If the departments are serious about wanting to fix the game, and make it playable, then they need to look at these issues and do something about them.

[sanchez]

I think the English Zone is experiencing more decline than others, and that might be attributed more to the style of some dominant players rather than the game itself, as some Zones, notably Polish and Spanish, are thriving.

That said, to me the crucial perspective on CR is about fairness. Many people get lost trying to justify the actions of their chars with a lot of handwaving over the fact that it is you who controls the chars, and not the other way around. If you have two working for the same goal, and this holds as well for your friends, you as a player have an advantage over other players.

When your chars belong to the same organisation, that is a shared goal, and when they live in the same area, their interests are difficult to keep apart. It's hard to remember what just one or the other knows if they have too much in common, and using knowledge from one, about people or places, to benefit the other is something others can't do, so it's unfair. It's not only immediate proximity that is a problem, as the same situation can obtain many towns or even islands apart if a group travels. But the rule is meant to guide common cases. Keep their interests apart, let each find his way in life as an individual. Avoiding proximity is a good start.

And Seko, I completely disagree that alerting your friends should be allowed. That defines an unfair advantage, and violates both the letter and the spirit of the CR, with OOC knowledge and OOC cooperation.

[Dogonabun]

I beleive what Seko mentioned was that the game, not another player, would alert you through email (text message?) when you are attacked.

[Cdls]

Sanchez, I agree with those points and that the CR is good at keeping players from letting their chars work together to further their own "agendas" instead of actually playing the game as they should. Maybe the topic should be changed to "restructure the CR" or something since it seems people are missing the point of this. I dont want the CR to be removed, what I want is to see the restrictions in place that prevent true individualism removed, or at least a provision set in place to allow for the faulty game mechanics.

That said, to me the crucial perspective on CR is about fairness. Many people get lost trying to justify the actions of their chars with a lot of handwaving over the fact that it is you who controls the chars, and not the other way around. If you have two working for the same goal, and this holds as well for your friends, you as a player have an advantage over other players.

Of course it is "you" that controls your chars (it would be scary if it really were the other way around) and that is where you (not you specifically) should make the actual distinction of whether or not the CR has actually been breached. I would think it would be easy to differentiate a person cheating and one who is playing in the "individualistic representation" that the game was designed to be.

When your chars belong to the same organisation, that is a shared goal, and when they live in the same area, their interests are difficult to keep apart. It's hard to remember what just one or the other knows if they have too much in common, and using knowledge from one, about people or places, to benefit the other is something others can't do, so it's unfair.

Yes, but that is the point I just brought up about being able to recognize the difference between a cheater and one playing with an "individualistic representation" of their char.

It's not only immediate proximity that is a problem, as the same situation can obtain many towns or even islands apart if a group travels. But the rule is meant to guide common cases. Keep their interests apart, let each find his way in life as an individual. Avoiding proximity is a good start.

This is something that is possibly turning away new players. Why would they want to travel to some other town in the hopes that they have nothing in common with the one they just left (organization, leadership, empire and so on) to find this "individuality"? It is very possible to have your chars operate in close proximity and lead separate lives even if involved within the same circles.



I do have some ideas regarding the spawning system, I will post them in the proper section however. Regardless of how I may come off, I am not taking a stab at how things are run, or the CR in general, just trying to find a way to make things more attractive for newer players as well as older ones.

[T-shirt]

What can't be controlled should be legal.

[formerly known as hf]

The ethos of Cantr's CR as I see it is 'what happens OOC stays OOC'

Sure, PD can't monitor everything, but I disagree at implicilty allowing OOC contact to initiate IC events. I know it happens. I don't care, but I'd prefer the PD ask people not to.

At the end of the day, it's a game. Take it too seriously - serious enough that you'd want to arrange IC events OOC rather than just let the game take its course. Or serious enough thast you get pissed when someone cheats (it's an online game, duh?) and your charries die (a given), Cantr's gonna annoy you...

[Voltenion]

if what you want is to attract more players, then what we need to do is change some things...We need to make things more interisting. So we need to eliminate boring things, for example, travelling...On foot, travelling really takes a long time. And that is boring(unless you're with someone else). The game wasn't made to be boring right? If realism is boring why should we allow such realism to enter the game... So reducing time travelling would be a good idea... But then some vehicles would be reaaaaaally fast, unless we only increase foot travelling...But then the vehicles would lose all the point, as they are expensive because they are good. -.-" This is kind of a waste of time, isn't it? sorry

Another thing that keeps players off the game is that they don't know about it... I made a topic in portuguese forum to incentivate the advertising of our cantr...So we all started making topics in other forums or just talking about the game in Hi5's/IRC's and all of those things
We were about 28 players before I said this...Now we are 51... Not joking. You guys have probably much more sites and forums and you are more so you can advertise easily... Now don't bring PD and such other things in this, it is YOU who need to do this...PD is understaff so they don't need more weight on their back... I play a lot on the English zones too so I'll help...I can even make the topic if none of you does it... All we need to do is advertise it, it's really simple

There will be lots of registering at first and some won't even talk but, as I said in Pt forum, from 10 about 3 or 4 will stay...Now for Cantr it's something right?

Bottom line: move your asses and start advertising. It will do a difference, believe me...


That is all, (I'll even sign it. I loved this post lol xD ) Voltenion.

[Missy]

if what you want is to attract more players, then what we need to do is change some things...We need to make things more interisting. So we need to eliminate boring things, for example, travelling...On foot, travelling really takes a long time. And that is boring(unless you're with someone else). The game wasn't made to be boring right? If realism is boring why should we allow such realism to enter the game... So reducing time travelling would be a good idea... But then some vehicles would be reaaaaaally fast, unless we only increase foot travelling...But then the vehicles would lose all the point, as they are expensive because they are good. -.-" This is kind of a waste of time, isn't it? sorry

Another thing that keeps players off the game is that they don't know about it... I made a topic in portuguese forum to incentivate the advertising of our cantr...So we all started making topics in other forums or just talking about the game in Hi5's/IRC's and all of those things
We were about 28 players before I said this...Now we are 51... Not joking. You guys have probably much more sites and forums and you are more so you can advertise easily... Now don't bring PD and such other things in this, it is YOU who need to do this...PD is understaff so they don't need more weight on their back... I play a lot on the English zones too so I'll help...I can even make the topic if none of you does it... All we need to do is advertise it, it's really simple

There will be lots of registering at first and some won't even talk but, as I said in Pt forum, from 10 about 3 or 4 will stay...Now for Cantr it's something right?

Bottom line: move your asses and start advertising. It will do a difference, believe me...


That is all, (I'll even sign it. I loved this post lol xD ) Voltenion.

On foot, travelling really takes a long time. And that is boring(unless you're with someone else).

Just a thought-----How many of your characters are people who strive to improve roads? How many of them have ever picked up a map and looked to see where oil is because the roads in your location suck? How many of them have ever actually struggled to walk those long roads, to get the oil because you feel that way about roads?

[edit]
But I agree. The answer is not in the Capital Rule. No matter how much you petition for a change, it's going to stay the way it is. I'd love to explain why but I feel like a broken record. I've wrote like six explanations as to why it should stay the way it is and it's all things that you're all already pointing out to yourselves.

So I'll say this.........You might like how War of the Worlds lets you do this. You might like how you can team up with a pal from Runescape and discuss the best way to accomplish a mission. But Cantr is not those games. It's not ever going to be those games. Jos I believe said that there was one thing that should never really change in this game and that was the CR. This was his game. His idea. And when he played legos the CR was a lot less strict (in fact there wasnt' a CR,) because you could just trust that your buddies who were sitting across from you weren't doing things to win an advantage on you. The internet is an entirely different thing than seeing your buddies face when he does something questionable. (Yes that makes our jobs hard so it indeed would be so much easier to let people do whatever they wanted----Let them take the easy way out and allow their characters to cooperate etc.) But you read too much into the CR in the sense that it's a CR breech to not be true to your character. It's been said a million times that you should be asking yourself, "Is it too easy to have my own character trade with my own character?" Yes. It is. If it's too easy, don't do it and you're not in breech of the CR. There is NO rule that says you have to be entirely true to your character if it's goingto make you break the MAIN point of the CR which is to keep your characters and the knowledge they possess seperate.

[Piscator]

I tried to do some advertising some time ago and the effect was quite low. Or let's say nonexistent in the long run. Maybe I was doing it wrong.

I'm a bit anxious about eliminating "boring" things. If we do that we'll have another WoW clone sooner or later.

I like the long travel times for example, it makes reaching a place finally much more satisfying. But I vaguely remember the topic was about something else...

[Voltenion]

Just a thought-----How many of your characters are people who strive to improve roads? How many of them have ever picked up a map and looked to see where oil is because the roads in your location suck? How many of them have ever actually struggled to walk those long roads, to get the oil because you feel that way about roads?

Ahm...Many of them...But roads are really big projects, and normally where roads are weak the town is probably abandoned or just with too few people or with more important things to deal with... What does that have to do with all I said? What I think is more important on that post is the advertisement, not the roads or travelling quickness...

[Newguy]

You'd probably need to make a post about advertising. This thread is about...... well, not advertising.

[Missy]

But I agree. The answer is not in the Capital Rule. No matter how much you petition for a change, it's going to stay the way it is. I'd love to explain why but I feel like a broken record. I've wrote like six explanations as to why it should stay the way it is and it's all things that you're all already pointing out to yourselves.

So I'll say this.........You might like how War of the Worlds lets you do this. You might like how you can team up with a pal from Runescape and discuss the best way to accomplish a mission. But Cantr is not those games. It's not ever going to be those games. Jos I believe said that there was one thing that should never really change in this game and that was the CR. This was his game. His idea. And when he played legos the CR was a lot less strict (in fact there wasnt' a CR,) because you could just trust that your buddies who were sitting across from you weren't doing things to win an advantage on you. The internet is an entirely different thing than seeing your buddies face when he does something questionable. (Yes that makes our jobs hard so it indeed would be so much easier to let people do whatever they wanted----Let them take the easy way out and allow their characters to cooperate etc.) But you read too much into the CR in the sense that it's a CR breech to not be true to your character. It's been said a million times that you should be asking yourself, "Is it too easy to have my own character trade with my own character?" Yes. It is. If it's too easy, don't do it and you're not in breech of the CR. There is NO rule that says you have to be entirely true to your character if it's goingto make you break the MAIN point of the CR which is to keep your characters and the knowledge they possess seperate.