Item Quality - Original

[marol]

It is not a big problem to determine item quality depending on manufacturers skill. It would be: Sum (character skill * amount of time spent [%]).

Example 1.
Two characters working on the same item, one's skill is 100, other one's skill is 40. They contribute the same amount of work (50%).
Output item: (100 * 50%) + (40 * 50%) = 50 + 20 = 70.

Example 2. Two characters working two days on an item (skills 30 and 50), and the third character joining them just for one day (skill 90).
Output item: (30 * 40%) + (50 * 40%) + (90 * 20%) = 12 + 20 + 18 = 50.

Bigger problem is to find out how item components quality determines the quality of item assemblied with them.

[Doug R.]

Bigger problem is to find out how item components quality determines the quality of item assemblied with them.

You could use the components mass. If item qualities are numeric, then you just average the qualities of the components to get the overall quality of the item.

Alternatively, in regards to item rot, you could set the quality at the lowest component, under the premise that the lowest quality will wear out the quickest and always need repair.

[marol]

OK, that is almost good solution, but you forget about assembling - characters skills should be taken into account together with parts quality when assembling.

Currently skill gives speed bonus when manufacturing. If we introduce item quality, then well skilled character will have double bonus - speed and quality. Isn't that too much? Maybe we should give up speed bonus then (leave it just for digging etc. projects)?

[the_antisocial_hermit]

No! It's nice being able to do things faster.... especially when it's something that takes forever anyway.

[Doug R.]

OK, that is almost good solution, but you forget about assembling - characters skills should be taken into account together with parts quality when assembling.

Then instead of mass, substitute time. Each part has a basic construction time, and the whole has a construction time. Average the qualities based on time instead of mass.

Alternatively, you could figure out which % of a project's total construction time is the final assembly, and then use that % as the % quality contributed to the overall project.

Currently skill gives speed bonus when manufacturing. If we introduce item quality, then well skilled character will have double bonus - speed and quality. Isn't that too much? Maybe we should give up speed bonus then (leave it just for digging etc. projects)?

But only speed when producing sub-par items. Producing items at their skill level will still take the basic amount of time, if I get the jist of what Seko and others have said.

[SekoETC]

I don't like the idea though that an awkward person (provided that they have the tools) could join an expert's project without him noticing, and "spoil" the item by lowering it's quality. It's different if the expert leaves the project lying around but if they're working on it then surely they should notice if some awkward person decides to pip in? But if you have for example a one day project, and you start it in the evening before going to bed, and then some bozo assists you with it so that it's completed by the time you get back online and it will be medium quality instead of extra fine. This is why I would want the quality to be set by the highest-level contributor.

[lacki2000]

Bigger problem is to find out how item components quality determines the quality of item assemblied with them.

Hmm, let's make it simple:
no level (quality) for components - only for final item - it will depend only on manufacturers levels (and initial speed of project).

But of course bigger diversity is better

[Doug R.]

It would probably be harder to do this, since then you'd have to stipulate which project outputs have a quality and which don't.

[marol]

But Seko, it is realistic. Just like in real life.

[the_antisocial_hermit]

Most don't play this game for reality. In reality if someone that wasn't good at working on something stopped beside you to work on your project, you'd be able to smack them across the face and throw them out of the room before they did any damage. If I wanted reality, I'd be playing real life as a hobby rather than Cantr.

What would quality affect? The effectiveness of things (sure as hell hope not)? Then the wiki would need to be changed a lot to include what an awful iron shield saves and what a well-made shield saves. Or what an awful bone needle factors into making a clothing item. It's too damn complex.

And what would happen to all the things already made? Would they be assigned some random quality level?

[SekoETC]

It was already said that existing items would be given medium quality. It would be enough if item quality affected 1) appearance and 2) deterioration speed. 3) Weapon damage? How much can we afford to let item quality affect this? There's already only a few points difference between weapons and it's not affected by deterioration. I think it would be better that at least with bladed weapons, the damage would be reduced as the item ages. Weapons made by awkward people would age faster and would become weaker that way.

Maybe it is realistic that everyone's skill is taken into account. Maybe people who want to produce the highest quality items would do so behind locked doors to avoid sabotage by less skilled people. Maybe there could be people fighting over who's going to pay if the apprentice ruined the customer's fine sword and there's not enough steel for making a new one. It might turn interesting.

[lacki2000]

Maybe people who want to produce the highest quality items would do so behind locked doors to avoid sabotage by less skilled people. Maybe there could be people fighting over who's going to pay if the apprentice ruined the customer's fine sword and there's not enough steel for making a new one. It might turn interesting.

I suggest to add a checkbox for project initiatior:

Code: Select all

|_| Less skilled crafters can join this project

If it will remain unchecked then only equal or better skilled chars can join your project.

[Wolf]

Taking things a step further, because of lesser skilled people joining...
I don't know the technical side of things (the possibility of programming it, the number-crunching involved etc.) but if lesser-skilled workers would be allowed to join, maybe they could learn from it faster than by doing it purely by themselves.
And if only better skilled workers could join, maybe the initiator would also learn faster from it, unless he was already at a good enough level.
(of course, when both workers are about equally skilled, this learning process would be negated).

For example... Chuckie sets up a project to make a battle axe.
Chuckie is an expert, and allows anyone to join.
Johnnie joins, and he's the worst possible at making weapons.
Normally, Johnnie would improve one level each twenty battle-axes, but because he's also learning from Chuckie, he now learns at a rate of one level every ten battle-axes.
Then, Chuckie sets up another battle-axe, and he is joined by Albert, who is average at making weapons.
Albert might normally improve one level each 15 battle-axes (or maybe the same as an awkward person (IE Johnnie) when working alone), but because he is already average and learning from Chuckie, he now improves one level every six battle-axes.

That's just an example, and I just pulled those numbers out of my you-know-what.
And I don't know if skill level currently actually influences how fast someone advances in a skill under the current system, so I mentioned both possibillities in the example.

[lacki2000]

Taking things a step further, (cut)

I like this idea of supervised learning.
We can also improve it a little bit:
Let's treat current skill level as constant 'gift/talent' level - so your actual crafting performance depends how often and with who you are making particular items. So you can also decrease your actual performance below your basic skill level if you don't create items. Of course forgetting should be quite slow and refreshing skill (to basic level) quite fast.
In chars desctiption menu all skills should present two values: actual performance and basic skill level.

And I think it is too much for zealous RPG players

[trexdino]

I think everyone should have a chance of making an item of at least medium level, even if they were awkward. They just need to put more time into it.

Disagree :] Don't feel sorry about awkward people - they are masters in something else. This idea is about increasing diversity and improve economy as someone wrote before.
[quote]
One of my charaters doesnt have a single expert skill level. Not everyone has one expert. I don't like this, what about those people on Buegeo, if they have a to make something horrible they will die.