Just want to try out an argument I've thought up...

[Elros]

Twisting written statements around to try to make them say something that they never said is not the point of an argument. It is fraud and slanderment. The point of a good argument is to take the statements in their true form and try to convince somone of something.

Anyone can twist words into saying something that they never said, but that is wrong.

For instance, I will take your last statment, and using the words you wrote, I will twist it around to say something it never said, then I will use it against you, even though it is completely taken out of context:

Zanthos Wrote:

Isn't the point of an argument to shoot people and laugh at smoking?

Zanthos! I am surprised at you! Thinking that teaching people to smoke is funny, and that shooting people is the best way to end an argument!


That was just a little funny example, but it is what people do when they twist what the Bible says and take it out of context to make it say what they want it to say.

[Cdls]

Zanthos, my statement was simply stating that you do not have to read or understand the bible to debate the questions offered up for debate.

Your statement:

As the source of all the information as to proving whether jesus was the son of god was the bible, ignoring its existance discredits your entire opinion.

is in fact narrow minded in that it states that just because someone chooses to have a different view, their opinion is discredited. No matter what view is chosen, all opinions are valid.

[Elros]

I disagree with you Cdls.

Deadboy's argument is simply this: According to the Bible Jesus is "not" the son of God.

So the only other stand you can take against his argument is: According to the Bible Jesus "is" the son of God.

It is very simple. We are debating about what the Bible says on the matter. If you do not use the Bible in the debate then you are off topic. People can give their opinions all day, but what matters is if Deadboy's post can be proven true or false using the Bible. If you want to argue through your own opinions or other sources then start your own thread or post in the religion thread.

[SekoETC]

But didn't it start from assuming that He is? So it's an elliptic statement.

[Elros]

But didn't it start from assuming that He is? So it's an elliptic statement.

Yeah, but I do not think he was ever admitting that He was, I think he was just using that to build up to his point that Jesus was "not" the Son of God... *shrugs* I do not know.

[Cdls]

Deadboy's argument is simply this: According to the Bible Jesus is "not" the son of God.

Please, go back and tell me where those words are? I took another look and nowhere does it state that in those words. Therefore, your statement that I have only two options on the matter are unfounded. I put all my opinions on the matter in a simple layout, nowhere did I detract from the opening post.

We are debating about what the Bible says on the matter.

Actually, no we are not. Once again, go back and reread his opening post and show me where it states that this has anything to do with what the bible says on the matter.

. People can give their opinions all day, but what matters is if Deadboy's post can be proven true or false using the Bible. If you want to argue through your own opinions or other sources then start your own thread or post in the religion thread.

No, I will not. All of my opinions are valid and nowhere do they detract from what he is asking:

'd like to put forward an argument that I thought of last night that seems to prove that Jesus cannot have been the son of God. I'm just testing it a little, and I'd actually like you to pick it to shreds. I've labelled the statements for easy referral

Now, if you are done pissing around trying to imply that my opinion doesnt matter because you choose to relabel what this is about, we can get back to the actual topic.

[Elros]

Well I don't care anymore. I have given my view of the topic so I am done on this thread. You can go ahead and post whatever you want Cdls.

[Zanthos]

Thank you Elros. Yes, as far as I know, from the ten years that I was a stout Christian, all of my statements coincide with what the bible teaches.

there, thats where he says he used the bible to prove his points. if you don't agree with the source, theres no way you could agree with the argument, so we all know your opinion.

[Cdls]

That proves nothing Zanthos, all it says is that he believes that his statements coincide with the bible. Nowhere does it state that it must be a basis on which any opinion can be shared.

Now, what I am starting to get is that you have no real way of debating my statements that I put forth, so instead you choose to find ways to discredit anything I have to say by coming up with some half ass remarks. If for some reason you have some problem with me, start some other damn topic and I will be sure to join you in conversation, but as for debating my beliefs, this is not the place. This is starting to get annoying so I will help out those that are troubled, or just dont have the capability to stay on track.

I'd like to put forward an argument that I thought of last night that seems to prove that Jesus cannot have been the son of God. I'm just testing it a little, and I'd actually like you to pick it to shreds.

[Zanthos]

Idiots may be able to read, but ignorant little shits like you may not understand that people have different beliefs. OMG!!!! the bible says that jesus is god!!! HOLY SHIT, it must be true!!!


I dont need to read the bible, I dont need to agree with what it says, and I sure as hell dont need to agree with you, especially since you have nothing to back up your statement other than "the bible says so"

im pretty sure around here is when things went off track...

[Sunni Daez]

I did not mean rearranging words.. I meant using partial truths.... The quotes may have been taken from the bible.. but there is alot in between that was left out... How can you prove or disprove anything with partial bits of knowledge..

Now.. these are quotes from a short story that I read... I know this is not an indepth thing.. but you should get my point...


1) I had never been on a fishing boat before

2) A strong gust of wind blew briskly across the lake

3) Then suddenly, something quite extraordinary happened

4) A beautiful loon landed only feet from my grasp.



According to those Quotes.. I could come to the conclusion that this person certainly had a nice day... a first boat ride... something extraordinary.... a beautiful loon... and it was a windy day.... wouldn't you agree it was something in those lines? (if you didn't know I was trying to prove a point?)

That is a totally wrong assumption... read this..
http://www.soon.org.uk/stories/the_figh ... rvival.htm

The whole story (very short at that)


It was not a nice day at all.....

[DylPickle]

Once upon a time there was a monkey-like woman named "God".
That was her name, because that was her preferential syllable to pronounce.
Unfortunately for God, she had a monkey-man's mustache, and was the laughingstock of the ape-like tribe.
But God had a belly, a big belly. Sometimes she'd slap her belly hard and yell "Mair-Eeee!" in a shout of glee.
One day, God felt a terrible pain, and collapsed to the ground. The ape-like crowd gathered around her in ape-like fashion, and watched in suprise as a less hairy, flesh-man slid out from between her legs. It a shout of horrific pain, God yelled "Jay-Ses!", and the ape-tribe took the cry as the baby's name.
It awed the ape-men to see the surprisingly unape-like child flailing around in his mother's arms. Hairless, save for a sprout or two atop his wet head.
From then on, the mustached, ape-like mother was held in the highest position of respect and was subject to the highest degree of curiosity.
It was then on remembered, in the Hew-mon tribe, that the fleshy baby Jesus was born from God's Mary.




Biiiiyaaaah!

[Valsum]

I'll try to add some more points to the discussion, but briefly, because we all know that religion topics here get off track often (as it has been remarked) so I don't want to waste my time.

1. It's true that with the Bible as source, one can accept it or not. One can see it as a book where myths are told, myths from a certain nation, or as the written expression of the Revelation. It's up to your faith.

2. The Bible is not the only source! There's other, of the same importance (at least according to the catholic doctrine), called Tradition. We don't have only that book, we have lots of people (apostles, disciples) going around the world and announcing the Gospel. Up to you to believe they were telling the truth or not, but many people believed in fact. And to believe, they sure saw good wonders, like those told in the Facts of the Apostles book (spelling might be bad, but hey, I'm spanish).

3. With the little theology of the Trinity I know, for God to truly not need anything (being non indigent) the Trinitary form is the most perfect. The ancient greek philosophers kinda saw something like this: a son of God was very reasonable for the creation of the world and also for paradigm. The Demiurge, the Logos. Jesus as the son of God allows to better explain the Genesis, for example.

4. Not sure if you have mentioned it already, but in the Bible, the best quotes that show that Jesus is the son of God are Peter's statement ("You are the Christ, the living Son of God") and Jesus' response to the High Priest ("You said it"). Also, all the times he says in the Gospel "I am", that being the sacred name of God, have been interpreted traditionally as an afirmation of his divinity.

Two cents

[deadboy]

I highly recomend watching thank you for smoking, not only is it hilarious, it provides good social commentary as to the nature of lobbiests and argument as a whole.

Love this book

[MakeBeliever]

I really find these threads quite sad to read, because deep down most religions are really telling you to care for one another underlaying in their teachings. I'm happy for people to have their beliefs, if it is their faith that makes them strong. But it is also faiths that turn mankind against one another because can we really figure out who is the right and one God and wether jesus is the result of the supreme god. I do believe Jesus is the son of god as in what the story dictates from the bible. It's just there are so many gods claimed out there that there is other madness to my thinking and who's to say they are not as true as the bible after all wasn't there Greek tales of gods even way before 4000bc Not to mention the Olmec's and Mayans and many other civilisations and religions.

The number of major gods recognized around the world and recorded in world history are in the hundreds.

The number of religions, current and past, centered on these gods, is in the thousands.

The number of lives lost in the attempt to advance or defend religious beliefs is in the million.

The number of humans negatively affected by this cultural anomaly is in the billions.

Hmm lets take a peek at a few gods after all if people here are claiming god and jesus being his son from written works is it not right that other written gods be mentioned and not just from the bible?

Adroa : Known as the "God in the sky" as well as a creator god by the Lugbara of Zaire and Uganda.
Asvins: Twin sky gods who rode in a gold car drawn by birds.
Baal-Haddad : Called "The Mighty," who rode the clouds." Son of Dagon, the corn god.
Biannme: The "Great One" and creator who lives in the heavens.
Buku : Worshipped as a sky god and creator, although sometimes worshiped as a goddess, in some West African cultures.
Bunjil: A sky god
Camulus: Known in Gaul as a god of the sky.
Di Jun: God of the eastern sky.
Ebore : An African sky god.
Emayian: A sky god of the Masai of Kenya, a sky god.
En-kai : A masai sky god.
Hathor: A sky goddess.
Helios:A sky god who flew in a golden chariot pulled by winged, white, fire-breathing horses.
Ilma: God of air.
Iris: A flying goddess with golden wings.
Jumala: Asky god and creator god.
Kazooba : Sky god, creator, and sun god of the Ankore of Uganda
Mixcoatl: Known as the "Cloud serpent" and god of the pole star to the Chichimecs in Central America.
Mukameiguru: A sky god of the Ankore.
Nwyrve: A father sky god in wales
Nenaunir: Resided in the clouds and was a dreaded spirit to the Masai.
Nyamia Ama: A sky god in Senegal.
Numitorem: Vogul sky god who created all animals.
Nut: A sky goddess and personification of the heavens.
Olorun: The sky-god of the Yoruba people. He created the world and mankind.
Olofin-Orun: A sky-god of the Yoruba.
Ometeotl: A sky god known as the god above all.
Odin: The mighty sky god of the Norse called All-Father.
Quetzalcoatl : Who flew in the sky, known as "Feathered serpent", "Morning Star" and creator god.
Sao-Ts'ing Niang: Goddess of the clouds.
Shamash: A god in the sky who flies in his chariot seeing all the evils and wrongs of the world.
Tlauixcalpantecuhtli: A sky god known as "Lord of the house of dawn"
Tilo: A sky god of Mozambique.
Tiwaz: The one-handed sky god and war god.
Ukko:God of the sky and air and highest of gods.
Unit: A star goddess
Umvelinqangi: A Zulu sky god who descended from heaven.
Wak: A supreme god, who lived in the clouds, worshipped in Ethiopia.
Wele : "The high One, sky god and creator god to the Bantu."
Yu-Huang-Ti: A sky god whose court is in the highest level of heaven.
Zeus : A supreme flying god known as "Cloud Gatherer."

The list could go on and on thats just a few of many examples..

Is it All, or some of the gods are real?. Since they all seem to get along in the heavens, which is a good thing since they all say they will return about the same time. That time being when man is about to destroy his own race and the world he inhabits. Many gods flying around the planet, staking out their own territory, controlling their own airspace, while scrupulously avoiding and ignoring the other gods, and the territory and air space of those other gods is not logical. Then, there is the problem that only one could be the creator god, only one could have been the savior; to list just a of few of the problems. And, a major problem is that they all claim to be the supreme god, which is, of course, impossible.

Is it that only one of the gods is real and that god has one chosen people as most of the religions worshipping their individual gods claim. That may be fine for the "chosen" people who are lucky enough to have stumbled upon that one "true" god, but for the others, it is a serious problem. Have they have been worshipping false gods, and no matter what size the religion of the true god happens to be, the number of non-believers is in the billions. Figuring out if you are lucky enough to be worshipping the right god, at the right time, is the first difficulty. If you didn’t pick the right god you have to wonder how deep in the "Heathen Heap" you will be buried. How do you explain to the real "God" why you dedicated all your time to a false god, while, at the same time, viciously condemning the real one?

And it's not just Mary that is claimed to have wound up with a bun in the oven without the fun and foreplay.

Bacchus : Semele, mother of the Egyptian Bacchus, was claimed a virgin.
Alcides : Alcmene, the mother of Alcides, was claimed a virgin.
Buddha: was claimed to be immaculately concieved.
Hercules: The virgin mother of the mighty and the almighty God Hercules, Prudence "knew only Jove."
Hesus: Mayence was virgin-mother of Hesus of the Druids Her body as being enveloped in light, and a crown of twelve stars upon her head.
Huitzilopochtli of the Toltec: A woman called Coatlicue, who was charged with keeping clean a temple on the Cerro de Coatepec, near Tula, was sweeping the building when she saw a beautiful ball of feathers drop from the sky, and put it away in her bosom. When she had finished her work, and tried to find the feather ball, it was no longer there, it had disappeared. At that same moment she became pregnant, although she had been a widow for many years.”
Osiris:Was honored with a divine immaculate conception.
Pythagoras: Pythais, the mother of Pythagoras, conceived by a specter or ghost of the God Apollo.

The list is endless again and could go on and on..but with So many similar striking connections throughout different religions it kind of gives you the same old story of virgin breedings with us lower mortals.

Jesus is born to a virgin: Many of the gods are the children of unions between virgins and gods.
Jesus preaches love for one another: Love for your fellow man and the Golden Rule are found in every religion
Jesus died and was claimed resurrected: Many gods claimed to regain life after death.
Jesus left the planet and a promise to return to save the world from evil forces: Saviors are a common theme in the world’s religions

Could it be all or most of the world’s gods are not different gods but different descriptions of the same Supreme God. This concept would mean that everybody is currently being deceived and seems to be blind to the fact that their own religions warn them about this deception. However, since most religions say the evil force would create a complete deception, and their god would allow this, humans, by default, are all innocent. Since everybody was being deceived, nobody be faulted. Would such a god pick only a few to associate with and ignore all the rest, or condemn them for believing a deception god allowed?

The first alternative, that there are many real gods, defies logic and does not seem to be supported by any practical evidence. Logic dictates that only one supreme god can fit on one planet. The second alternative, that there is no god, not only defies logic but mountains of evidence disproving it. The third, and the most accepted alternative, that there is only one real god and many false gods, dismisses the impossibility of so many glaring similarities.
It is the final alternative that logic supports, evidence corroborates, and fits into the model of a one loving and fair Supreme God. It is, also, the only one that bodes well for all mankind. It does not argue the differences in the many religions, but recognizes the similarities. It does not condemn the differences, it explains them. It does not exclude any, but includes all. And, it is the only scenario that would explain a mass deception of mankind. The strongest and most effective of all offensive strategies is divide and conquer. Isolating mankind into many small groups by convincing them that only they are right and all the other groups are wrong will keep them busy opposing each other while the real evil goes forward unimpeded and undetected. Convincing them that only they are right and everybody else is wrong will prevent us from realizing we are all created by the same God with the guaranteed destiny of becoming part of the Family of God.

Wether you believe in a god and wether you believe jesus was the son of a god, does it really matter if all religions are watched over by the same Supreme god in reality maybe.?

Kind of makes you think that with all the sky gods and chariots and wings in the skies was god actually an Alien from the universe out there. A supreme being of enlightenment with a liking for virgin breedings who's tried his darn hardest to try to get us all to get along and appreciate one another for who we are, well anyway before i sound like a ufo nutter, it just maybe so.