Characters need to quit having morals

[tiddy ogg]

Agreed, newspawns should initially accept the mores of the society they are spawned in, but morals come from a sense of self-preservation as much as anything.
It is fair enough for the char to figure out that if everyone goes around killing everyone else, he, himselff, is as likely as not to be on the receiving end of this. Morals and religion are entirely separate concepts, The societies that progress are those that keep everyone in that society happy, as in most places in Cantr, is in RL in earlier years, extra population means more work, means more prosperity.
It surely doesn't take much reasoning for a thinking char to come up with such reasoning, although, admittedly, RL baggage is always a problem, and he can do what RL dissidents have done... move elsewhere and try to start anew.

[saztronic]

I think the point of this thread is well taken, it's one I've been thinking about a lot lately even though I haven't played Cantr in almost a year.

The question isn't "Where do morals come from?" so much as "Why are everyone's morals in Cantr so damn similar?"

There are no true slave-owning societies in Cantr, for example. Why not? First, perhaps, because people are unwilling to roleplay it. But also because too many people who spawn want everything to be equal, groovy, sunshine and daisies -- they bring their preconceptions to the game and so the very idea of a town/country where a significant portion of the population is treated as chattel will never be accepted.

Same for, let's say, fascism. Sure, there have been plenty of dictatorships in Cantr, but not true fascism -- that is, an official ideology that must be adhered to. Secret police, informers, a very rigid code of what kinds of behavior and speech are acceptable or not, where those who don't conform are "disappeared" or "reeducated." Unlikely to happen in Cantr.

Individual evil exists, we've all seen it -- torture, rape, murder, brigandry, whatever. But "organized" evil, on a larger scale and despite its prevalence in the real world, doesn't compute in Cantr -- because the players accept without question the hegemonic liberal democratic mindset they bring to the game.

Even though I don't play Cantr anymore, I do mess around on the Game Forum. Right now we're playing a game that involves a bunch of zombies who are trying to kill everyone else. No one knows who's good and who's bad, anyone could be anyone. So in an admittedly over the top moment, I grabbed another player -- who happened to be RPing a woman -- by the neck to accuse her of being a zombie.

I expected some kind of reaction, of course, but not this one: two people immediately took to defending the woman's honor. "Hey, man, hands off the lady." "You put your dirty hands on that woman again and we'll take you down." That sort of thing. So OK, that's fine to roleplay, but it did strike me as weird. What difference does it make that it's a woman in this context -- she could still be a zombie, right? But societal norms dictate that a strong man grabbing a woman by the neck necessitates a rescue of the damsel in distress, even though said woman is an elite trained soldier and potentially an undead monster that eats human flesh. Chivalry triumphs over all.

Where are the societies in Cantr where women are treated as second-class citizens? I don't think they should be in the real world, but there are plenty of places where they are -- and maybe we might learn something from the experience of roleplaying that. Something uncomfortable, perhaps, but valuable nonetheless.

Where are the societies where women treat men like chattel? That would be a fascinating place.

Where are the towns where tulips are so valuable that people would trade a house just for a handful of them?

Where are the societies made of people who live on ships, traveling together from place to place but mostly living on the open sea?

Where are the towns dedicated to ritual human sacrifice, to ensure good crops or keep evil at bay? Or where witches are systematically identified, interrogated, and burned at the stake?

Mostly, Cantr is like a bad Renaissance Fair. With motorcycles. All the fey trappings of medieval life but none of the harsh realities. And no sign that any other kind of world is possible.

/end rant

[SekoETC]

Yeah, it's sad that different societies won't work out. Mainly because a single person can plan up a society (like one of my characters once wrote an elaborate description of a hierarchical society where anyone exept the leader could end up whipped and they would be expected to take off their tunic for that, because it's the right thing to do) but many people are not ready to play characters very different from themselves so finding the right kind of characters to form the society would be close to impossible. You can't just walk up to people and say "hey, would you like to join my society? At first you wouldn't be allowed to talk unless adressed by your elders but later you would get a fine whip and could boss other people around, except that if you would break the laws then you would end up whipped by someone else". Most people would be like omg, you're such a pervert!

Oh and everyone tends to fall asleep. I was around when someone in Reniov forest noticed that there was only a couple of guys around and they were no-good sleepers, so they said lets name this place The Land of Strong Women. There is a landmark welcoming people to the land of strong women but all of those strong women are now dead.

[Missy]

I'm not trying to be all philosophical here, i'm just saying newspawns come about and start questioning the way a society is with a quickness and imposing different LIBERAL ideas onto the society. Where did they get these morals? Freedom of speech was unheard of 500 years ago throughout the world and even today in many places it is too. Why are people who are spawned suddenly given the knowledge that freedom of speech is a humanitarian right. How do they know the value of freedom of speech? It took society hundreds of years to figure it out. Yet these newspawns seem to have it figured out the second they come to Cantr.

Buncha bull if you ask me.

It's a flaw coming from the way the people playing the characters are born unto the world. People these days in the real world don't realize how incredibly good they have it. They don't realize that respect from 100-200 years ago is extremely largely different than it is today. It's not just about freedom of speech, but people today aren't brought up with the same values of respect that people were many years ago. You are born with a right to free speech even as people are still fighting for more freedom of speech. It was natural to be born 100 years ago and never speak at the supper table because children were seen and not heard and so as you got older, you were instilled with the values you didn't have the right to speak whenever you wanted or about whatever you wanted to just anyone.Today people use the supper table to discuss their day and find out what's going on in their children's lives. Wives used to quietly tell their husbands how they felt something was wrong and the husband would shush the wife for fear of being frowned upon. Being born into a society where all you knkow is free speech, is sometimes hard for people to imagine just how different life used to be. Today you can approach just about anyone in a very laid back manner. Years ago, if you didn't use the words "Yes Ma'am/sir" when speaking to someone of greater importance than yourself: IE a customer, your employer, your parents, you were told about it---Everyone in the US is born incredibly liberal even if you consider yourself far right wing---Compared to the way things used to be. It's hard not to play a character that thinks it has rights no matter if those rights are freedom of speech/freedom to go where you like or whatever. It's more instinctive than not to want to rebel against something that you feel is oppressive, however, no matter what era you are born in. People pass that on to their characters more often than not, without even realizing. On the other hand, where did the heroe's from ages ago come from? They too had found their voices when it was unheard of to speak out against things and I'm not talking just about Robin Hood or Braveheart. People with in their own ranks finding fault with the way they do things. Consider a Roman soldier being forced to torture someone, despite this being the only life he's ever known, t he traumatic event is enough to make him switch sides, but then maybe he has a fear of what doing that will result in so he keeps quiet instead? It's not like you can hang a corpse out in the town square with a picture of it's bloody state that will show it was tortured so that newspawns will go O_O Omg I better shut up or I'll die. Noone thinks about that, because we instinctively know there's a c hance we don't see people die for speaking their minds and twe've learned to know that we can fight back if someone wants to stop us from speaking them--WITHOUT even having to think about it. But it's also not like people back in the day didn't speak out when they so felt. It's not like some people didn't want to speak out, but didn't because they feared the punnishments they'd receive if they did. Are punnishments for doing that common in Cantr?[/b]

[Leo Luncid]

I've read that while there are morals that shouldn't be known from the start, there are natural moral laws.

For example, in Catholicism, the fifth of the Ten Commandments states that one should honor human life ("Thou shalt not kill"). Is this Fifth Commandment supposed to teach us that we should honor human life? Could Cain, who murdered his brother Abel centuries before the Ten Commandments ever existed, have his day in court and be acquitted, because the law hadn't been promulgated until after the alleged crime took place?

No.

The Fifth Commandment wasn't supposed to teach us to honor human life; it was intended to remind us to honor it (in my opinion anyways).

Natural moral law is unwritten but is known by all men and women who have the use of reason. It uses basic commen sense, prudence, and justice. Because it's known by reason, not written in stone or on paper, like the Commandmetns or the Bible, the moral law is natural. It's moral becasue it applies only to moral acts -- actions of human being that involve a free act of will. (It doesn't apply to animals, because they don't the use of reason.)

We're human beings, and since Cantr characters are assumed to be human beings be played by human beings, they should follow the same natural moral law as well.

Don't be compared to a chicken by spawning a character saying that he could kill someone and not know it was wrong to do it.

[Seeker]

I'm just sick and tired of newspawns spawning in your town and instantly questioning the very structure of your government. You'd think that pure common sense would make them reconsider when they realise that they have nothing and that everyone around them is fairly well armed.

[Trae]

I'm just sick and tired of newspawns spawning in your town and instantly questioning the very structure of your government. You'd think that pure common sense would make them reconsider when they realise that they have nothing and that everyone around them is fairly well armed.

Lol I don't really have an opinion on the matter, because I find everyone's point well thought out...
I just wanted to quote this one post merely because it made me laugh...just the part about everyone else being fairly well armed seemed funny to me.

~Traley~

[fuschyou]

I am glad there are people who agree with my concept. They have taken the concept in different directions that I have not even thought of, but nonetheless, they have taken to the concept.

I am currently trying to create a society based upon these liberal norms which people believe in.

You will truly see how boring and unsimulatable liberal society can be once it's created. But by then it will be too late to do anything about it.....

When I resign though, I predict anarchy will occur throughout the continent yet again .


Oh...btw....I have read everyone's post on this subject thus far, so noone here think their voice is being unheard. VIVA LA REVOLUCION!

[Zanthos]

i doubt it.

anarchy will only reign if someone makes it reign. Cantrians have a tendency to take the route of least resistance.

[Drakulya]

I have a character who was very immoral once upon a time, but over time he realized his idiocy and is now a respectful pacifist. *shrugs* He wasn't just spawned an immoral person, someone had pushed him over the edge and he had snapped. Morality can come from numerous sources. Another one of my characters looks up to a very *coughs* 'open' fellow who is willing to bash in someones head for being rude. My character is now a near copy of this fellow, but my character was spawned and looked upon this man in wonder and fear.

I think morality evolves on a large and small term scale. If you want more immorality, then create it. Its a domino effect, and trust me, if good RPers are out there, it will spread like a plague. Ok... maybe not so, but dreams 'might' come true right?

Also, concerning anarchy, why won't it work? Anarchy must be enforced by the people. Everyone for themselves, or you can join together for the better good. You don't need a government for common sense Sadly, in RL, the government must enforce laws to make people even follow common sense. This is translated over to Cantr because while we may try our hardest, OOC influence still finds its way in.

[Solutions Maximus]

Caught my eye...

Even though I don't play Cantr anymore, I do mess around on the Game Forum. Right now we're playing a game that involves a bunch of zombies who are trying to kill everyone else. No one knows who's good and who's bad, anyone could be anyone. So in an admittedly over the top moment, I grabbed another player -- who happened to be RPing a woman -- by the neck to accuse her of being a zombie.

I expected some kind of reaction, of course, but not this one: two people immediately took to defending the woman's honor. "Hey, man, hands off the lady." "You put your dirty hands on that woman again and we'll take you down." That sort of thing. So OK, that's fine to roleplay, but it did strike me as weird. What difference does it make that it's a woman in this context -- she could still be a zombie, right? But societal norms dictate that a strong man grabbing a woman by the neck necessitates a rescue of the damsel in distress, even though said woman is an elite trained soldier and potentially an undead monster that eats human flesh. Chivalry triumphs over all.

Sexual Dimorphism and Survival.

Ever watch animals?


Lastly, hello to all the old Cantrian friends.

[Mr. Bones]

I think alot of morals are just common sense. DO you want to be killed, so why kill others. Do you want to have your stuff stolen. why steal from others?. 20 years is a stage humans are well developed and can think for themselves if something should be going on or not so why not Cantrians also; nothing has been said to the contrary.

In simple terms "Everybody hates a prick so don't be one."

[SekoETC]

I have a couple of characters that were spawned cranky, with a pessimistic attitude that didn't allow them to make healthy contacts in their spawn towns which lead into thinking everybody hates them so they're in constant defense mode. They've both been involved in piracy although the first one only steals from a certain group of people and the second one has been living peacefully for years. They're both nervous about women although both have contemplated a violent approach, one more often than the other one. Nowadays both are very nice to people they don't consider a threat.

[Solutions Maximus]

It is difficult to bear a mask when the mask is so completely dissimilar to ourselves.

I mean to role-play.

[Drakulya]

Another of my characters was abit of a pirate for a bit, but then he was picked up by a very prominent and honorable fellow. Now he's been shown what honor can do, and is in simple terms, a very defensive, honorable man. He started off with NO morals once so ever, but is now defending towns from threats. *shrugs* Morals are easily formed, but not so easily forgotten if you know what I mean.