Vote to end the LAG!

[sanchez]

Some of my sailors are hungry.

[SekoETC]

Rather than "restoring the old system" as in trying to stuff bits of code back in, the best option is most likely to write a new system that is alike the pack system but might include some features from the new system.

[tiddy ogg]

Yeah, I didn't realise it would be a lot of trouble to change back. OK. Go for it then fellas and get it sorted. It's the not knowing that's the biggest frustration, and we now know you're on the track. *very happy*

[Sicofonte]

Rather than "restoring the old system" as in trying to stuff bits of code back in, the best option is most likely to write a new system that is alike the pack system but might include some features from the new system.

-nods-

[The Sociologist]

Jur, one of the things that used to come up in my job is the psychology of people doing programming. They become so wrapped up in some or other piece of code that they lose all contact with reality. That is why it is necessary for programming to be so tightly managed.

Let's have a look at the situation and ask some questions:

(1) What did the individualized animal system buy us in terms of end-user functionality?

Answer: nothing to date; indeed it had negative impact as follows.

(a) It is no longer possible to maintain viable breeding populations. The MacGregor lions and wolves wandered off and were killed elsewhere. Similarly with most horses in the Akypor region. And yet tortoises, which had once been rare and valued, suddenly flourished with populations of 40 and more in many areas, and with the occasional one spreading to Drojf. In short, that one island lost almost all its previous regional differentiation in terms of animals. Other less inhabited areas, on the other hand, experienced simply absurd growth in animal numbers. RD staff will now devote yet more time to trying to correct manually the disastrous consequences of the system.

(b) The individualized sytem created as many as 2,000,000 quasi "objects" on the server, a workload which it clearly cannot handle. This has resulted in massive amounts of lag during prime evening time for players in Europe and the Eastern coast of the US, making the game unplayable by the greater part of its potential player base.

(2) What has been the cost? Well, Chris once remarked that he had spent 30% of his time fixing this system. This was apparently after it had already been implemented and before the lag became apparent. I don't know how much programming time is being spent now, but I suspect most of it is going into investigating all manner of bits of other code to see if they can be optimized further. The greater part of this exercise is almost certainly futile, since such code has no role in the lag. Meanwhile, further work on anything that might revive interest or excitement in the game has not been heard about for a long while.

Now, in my old day job any system with a track record like that would be scapped instantly and any programmer who responded "just give us a little longer" would be fired. Simple as that. I have been watching this going on for almost a year now, shaking my head as the game died. And to answer your question, I have indeed stopped actively playing Cantr. I pop in once or twice a week to keep some charries fed and because I'm now studying how long it will take various societal "memes" which I introduced into some towns to fade away or mutate. However, the number and value of the remaining players is now for the most part so poor that there is little worth even in that.

[Valsum]

I give a vote of confidence to the programmers and the Staff. Yes, that means I trust them because...they are the Staff after all.

[Sicofonte]

Now, in my old day job any system with a track record like that would be scapped instantly and any programmer who responded "just give us a little longer" would be fired.

I'm sure in your job the programmers are waged. Here are volunteer.

Are you suggesting to fire the programmers of Cantr?. Hehehe...
Jur is right, you maybe could apply to the ProgD.

one of the things that used to come up in my job is the psychology of people doing programming

I bet you don't know yet that psychology. Neither do I (even being a programmer), but yours is worse.


PS: the points you enumerated are well known, but some are false. For example, RD staff is not devoting more time to the animals system. The Shepherd (Doug R.) is the only one dedicated to animals. And all this will be fixed as soons as possible (holidays are sacred, you know).

[N-Aldwitch]

Now, in my old day job any system with a track record like that would be scapped instantly and any programmer who responded "just give us a little longer" would be fired.

I'm sure in your job the programmers are waged. Here are volunteer.

Are you suggesting to fire the programmers of Cantr?. Hehehe...

My staff are volunteers, and I would still apply Sociologists claim to them should that situation arise.

[Reindeer^]

Please answer shortly...

Will there be a dramatical change if the old system will come back?
Do I notice it in the game?

I don´t know because I have played this game only few weeks.

[the_antisocial_hermit]

No, it wouldn't be strikingly visible, except maybe if you watched the animals closely. Animals would still migrate, which I think is one of the most noticeable things about them.

[kinvoya]

The lag seems to be much better to me already. I'm sure that now they know what has been causing it the programmers will straighten everything out without having to revert to the old animal system.

[Zanthos]

Now, in my old day job any system with a track record like that would be scapped instantly and any programmer who responded "just give us a little longer" would be fired.

I'm sure in your job the programmers are waged. Here are volunteer.

Are you suggesting to fire the programmers of Cantr?. Hehehe...

My staff are volunteers, and I would still apply Sociologists claim to them should that situation arise.

then you would very quickly run out of staff.

the way i see it, if the staff is taking your money, its alright to threaten them with cutting off their pay. but if the staff is volunteer, everything they do helps you out, and they ask (expecially in the case of cantr) for nothing in return.

they're working on it, they're working for free, we're playing for free. anyone who complains about the problems the game has, well you get what you pay for. Sure, things were better in the past, but sometimes things have bugs when they're being improved.

[Sicofonte]

Thanks, Zanthos.


(Thetaris, all that have said Zan was what my "Hehehe" means)


Open your miiind
Be water my friend

[The Sociologist]

The lag seems to be much better to me already. I'm sure that now they know what has been causing it the programmers will straighten everything out without having to revert to the old animal system.

Kinvoya, aren't you being just a little naive? Let's go through what Jur wrote step by step.

Jur wrote "Since animals are an integral part of the game, we can't just turn them off. We have decided to reduce their cycles from four to two times per day for now though [...] This measure affects the entire animal system (reproduction, travel, attacking, etc), if you see significant problems in-game because of this (in particular, animals getting extinct unexpectedly), please report them here. We are looking to get back to normal animal processing in a few weeks."

What he is saying is that he has identified the problem as being the animals. That is correct (and some of us claimed that all along). As a temporary fix he has cut animal cycles in half. Good going so far--this should reduce the lag somewhat. Perhaps that is what you have already noticed.

However he asks that you be aware of the danger of animal extinctions. Said animals will presumably be breeding/travelling only half as much as before. In other words, the risk of the decline in animal diversity which we have already observed with this new system is now doubled. Hence this being merely a temporary fix.

He then claims that "normal animal processing" will be restored in a few weeks. Presumably this will be after they have transferred it to a secondary database. There are just so many questions that could be asked at this point. Do they mean an entire second server just for the animals? Where will the money come from? Should player's donations to the game go towards an "animal playpen" purely for the programmers? Who will maintain it? To what degree will said maintenance detract from work on end-user stuff?

The is actually precisely what I meant when I pointed out how programmers' "pet projects" can grow uncontrolled to the point where they swallow entire corporate budgets and bankrupt companies unless managed and controlled.

What will the fate of Cantr be? A virtual ecology simulation into which occasional humans are added to study the effects, or a game people might want to play? It's up to them to decide.

[kinvoya]

Kinvoya, aren't you being just a little naive?

Yes, I am. That's all I can be since I know nothing about programming.

In other words, the risk of the decline in animal diversity which we have already observed with this new system is now doubled. Hence this being merely a temporary fix.

Doug is keeping an eye on this and I trust that it will eventually be balanced. In the meantime, the fluctuation of animals makes for realistic roleplay in that occasional scarcity and over abundance is natural. I have one character who lives in a growing town with virtually no small bones available. This of course makes even a common bone knife a luxury item. I enjoy this unusual situation so I have no real complaints. For me, overcoming obstacles is the best part of playing Cantr.

The rest of your rant is basically speculation, exaggeration and predictions of doom. I don't always agree with the programmer's decisions and I have voiced my opinions many times but, in the end, I think we have to trust that they know much more about what is going on than any of the rest of us. They are volunteering their time because they want the game to work as well as possible. It's legitimate to give feedback but harping on what you think might be going on in their psyches is ridiculous and annoying for everyone.