Animals

General out-of-character discussion among players of Cantr II.

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sem
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Postby sem » Tue Apr 24, 2007 11:38 am

Frits wrote:As in a hilly location can have no more than 123 rabbits, 43 bears and 79 elephants, than a forest can have no more than 94 rabbits, 97 bears and 15 elephants. And so on for each animal for each locationtype

I think you are actually talking about the same idea. If you notice, the mix of animals in the examples given is different for each location type. The difference would seem to be only an implementation difference, where in one case the location type records what animals it can support, and in the other the animal type records which locations can support it.
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Solfius
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Postby Solfius » Tue Apr 24, 2007 12:03 pm

Ah, I take it back, I must have missed that sentence when I read the post first time round, although it does mean each location type must have a cap specified for each animal type, currently there are 40 animal types on the wiki, and there are 7 location types I can think of (desert, mountain, grassland, hills, forest, swamp, beach) which means there would be 280 different caps to decide on and set.

If I were Doug I'd far rather have a universal cap by type that wasn't affected by location type (we already have location criteria as animals only live in certain places) which would need only 40 caps (1 for each animal type)

(EDIT: 3000th post :D)
El Bicho Mutante
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Postby El Bicho Mutante » Tue Apr 24, 2007 8:29 pm

Ok under normal circunstances I don't post in the english channel, will make an exeption; don't get used to it ;)

Ok, a lot has been talked about the way to solve things, but I think there is not an exact knowledge of what are the animals problems in each island.

First, as said by the spanish players; the spanish-german island works fine, we don't have predators and are steady amount of animals. However, the problem with largely populated islands is that small animals tend to get extincted more quickly, and that's what's happening. Primarly pigons have virtually dissapeard, but rabbits are starting to decrease their numbers. I think is fair in a future spanish island could suffer a great extinction of animals, since it would help to develop the agriculture (so far there is so much meat than is not really necesary to plant, and comunities who don't have nutritional foods, as forest, don't have to import food). I think a bit of extintion is fair; but I would like to be a steady and controlled extintion, noy just that we get no small animals and newspawn can't make their bone knifes all that. Also, pigeons are the only source of feathers there, so now finding 500 grams is becoming a really challenging task.

About the Dutch-French island: as everybody knows the person who programmed animals there hates the French, so he made everything on his power to makes their lives impossible. Aganist all odds, some communities have managed to live, but thier numbers remain being scarce. Don't know, at this point I think it has become part of the way of living, but some control must be implanted. The bear population exceeds the other animal population in most towns, and the wild boar population is not small neither. I think the average is 70 bears per city and 50 wild boars, while the small animals, as the deers, rabbits and wolves, are reducing thier numbers. I think half of the population of bears and a quarter of wild boars could be erased without making the place much less dangerous, and will allow none agressive species to develop. Still, the island will be unfair for the frenchs (poor access to iron and small numbers) but will be a bit more fair, an could actually allow the french develop as a comunity (the Dutch are better since they live in an area with good access to iron and they are quite developed).

Then Irirki Yin island, the "secret" german island: as far as I know the place is overcrowded with elephants, but the germans are making a good profit with the ivory and they seem to be a love-hate relationship. Maybe some control on the elephants would be nice, but not too much since people will start to complain about the ivory shortage.

Portuguese island; the real problem: well, basically the bloody scarabs have eaten every other animal there; is kind of funny that the scarabs are extiguishing the buffalos. The average amout of scarabs in the portuguese lands are over 125, and is making impossible getting meat, bones or hide. Along with the the lack of big organized cities, iron and safety life there is becoming difficult. Is not much the problem of scarabs killing people, is just is very diffcult to build something there. Massive destruction of scarabs and repopulation of the native life is recommended (urgerently), since the human factor had nothing to do this time.

Odjusön island (one of the swedish islands): well, things here are simple: not a single animal here, not even a skinny pigeon. Since newspawns are starting to appear is unfair that they are unable to make themselves even a bone knife, so at least some animals should be implanted soon.

Finally, Västö island, another Swedish island. Here there are massive amount of animals, but it seems lemmings are starting to be the preponderant species. Some control over them is needed.


Well, thats all I have to say; I think one of the big problems is that small species tend to develop more that what is correct in unhabited lands and tend to get very reduced in pupulated places. The solution of just reducing the animal breeding rate can be good for the moment, but is unefficient at long term, since for example hawks are both in largely habited places and unhabited places. Reducing their breeding will control the oerpopulation but most likely will make them extiguish in populated places. I think the solution, as it has been said before, is individual limits for each species, and having a smaller limit for big predators and animals and a bigger for small species.

Well, that's my 5 cents, back to my cave ;)
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Doug R.
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Postby Doug R. » Tue Apr 24, 2007 8:46 pm

Well, my thread's been thoroughly hijacked, so I might as well join you.

I agree that a having overcrowding broken down by species is necessary.

It doesn't need to be set in stone, however.

I would propose the following:

The current formula for animal overcrowding is the sum of (# Animals of a type * 1/reproduction chance)

So, if a location only has 50 buffalo which reproduce at 3%, and 10 cows which reproduce at 2%, (50/3)+(10/2) = 22. If the Sum >= to 40, then overcrowding conditions are triggered for all animals.

My very simple version:

The max # of animals for each location type would be a constant like 40, except lower. The same formula would be applied, but overcrowding would be applied on a species-specific basis. So, if grasslands were 10, it could support 20 cows, 30 Buffalo, and 70 lemmings (rep 7%). If there were 10 cows, 50 Buffalo, and 50 lemmings, overcrowding conditions would be triggered for the Buffalo only.

A more complicated version:

Take the above, and modify the constant based on # of resource slots. Currently, resource slots directly indicate the size of a location by defining how many people can gather and also how many buildings can be built (accepted, but not sure if implemented). It would stand to reason that it should also dictate how many animals can congregate.

I don't like making excess animals disappear.

With the proposed under-population trigger, it will be easier to breed up low animal populations, and in this model, overcrowding will no longer have a serious negative impact on player and animal populations.

Why don't I support hard caps?


If we had hard caps, it would be too easy to set reproduction rates too high and use the caps as a crutch to controlling the populations. I am a proponent of a balanced death vs. spawn rate in areas of low character density.

This does put the responsibility on players in areas of high player density to protect their animal populations, but that is as it should be. Characters should not be able to hunt recklessly without consequences. Once I have completed balancing the natural death/spawn figures, I will fix those areas that were disrupted by these imbalances (and bugs), but I won't seed these areas any further. If players hunt things to extinction, so be it (this is contingent on getting species individualized over-crowding triggers. That way, the repro rates of things like pigeons can be ramped up with out consequence to other animal populations. I'm not blind to the fact that anything that can be killed with one or two hits by a newspawn is in serious jeopardy despite the best efforts of the players to protect them).
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Doug R.
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Postby Doug R. » Tue Apr 24, 2007 8:57 pm

Thanks El Bicho. That was the single most useful post I've gotten so far in regards to what I need to be addressing.
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Solfius
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Postby Solfius » Tue Apr 24, 2007 9:50 pm

I like you suggestion Doug, and accept your reasons for not having hard caps.

But I still think there should be a feature that models the way some animals group together in herds and others are solitary. That is what I had in mind when I mentioned caps; probably a good one for suggestions
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Doug R.
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Postby Doug R. » Tue Apr 24, 2007 11:05 pm

I think that anything that forces animals to lead a solitary (or low pop) existence will just ensure the extinction of the species.
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notsure
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Postby notsure » Tue Apr 24, 2007 11:48 pm

Sorry, Doug, I've been too busy digging bear claws and boar teeth out of my charries' bums in French Land to answer you on this animal question.

Actually, I think the attacks and/or number of animals has lessened slightly over the last six months or so. We have actually been able to to have onions AND carrots both at the same time now, not just one or the other.

Watch out, world!!!!!!!

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Talapus
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Postby Talapus » Wed Apr 25, 2007 12:00 am

Doug, please look into the Shai island. 5 locations, 10000 scarabs (yes that is ten thousand), 100 mountain goats, and less then a hundred turkeys. If something is not done soon, all of the other animals will be destroyed by the massive hordes of scarabs.
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The Sociologist
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Postby The Sociologist » Wed Apr 25, 2007 12:32 am

Whoever coded this thing should first have read up on a guy called Malthus. However, failing the shocking revelation that animals have to eat, I would continue to support simple hard caps on animal levels species by species as the best solution. I have been asking now for what? A year? What did the new system buy us as players? What?

If Cantr is meant to be a private A-Life experiment with a few human players thrown in, then so be it. But it will fail is a game. If it is meant to be a game that people will want to play, then these excesses need to be curbed. And what programming still gets done surely has other higher priorities now than yet more complexification involving animals.
Frits
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Postby Frits » Wed Apr 25, 2007 1:12 am

Well after i pointed out the buffalo-issue on K-island and the big part natural armor plays i assumed you would see the big picture clearly. I just read Shai island is overcrowded with armored scarabs. I can add that tortoises remain rampant in certain areas of treefeather island but horses are also doing fine. On the (largely unpopulated) half of Burgeo that i've seen are many armored species in uncontrollable large numbers; rhino, elephant, bear, wild boar and gorilla. In lesser numbers you'll encounter horse, rabbit, lion and hawk. The hawks, just like the one pigeon and turkeys are preyed upon for their eggs and are in danger of extinction.

But as el Bicho Mutante mentions local circumstances play a important part, i know the french/dutch island and i reckon it would be tough to survive without that iron shield, a building, a weapon and healing foods.

Hunting is a factor in animalnumbers, there wil always be hunters with poor weapons and only sometimes hunters with good weapons (starting from comp recurve bow). You could look at lowering natural armors by 1 or 2... or more than 2 and then also changing animalhealthpoints. That's another way of regulating animalnumbers by one species at a time.
Last edited by Frits on Wed Apr 25, 2007 1:40 am, edited 1 time in total.
Frits
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Postby Frits » Wed Apr 25, 2007 1:38 am

It's an interesting idea Doug, i like the complicated version of determining the constant to your formula.
Regarding excess animals i suppose they die from lack of food and breeding ground, they could fight one another about this. But if you don't erase them, everytime one dies a few neat stacks of animalproducts would appear in townsquare and i think this would disrupt balance. And if you let them migrate they will end up in the next town where they may trigger the very same event. I've noticed the popnumbers for given species in adjacent locations are linked. That way you might end up with large number of evermigrating animals.
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Doug R.
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Postby Doug R. » Wed Apr 25, 2007 2:30 am

Talapus wrote:Doug, please look into the Shai island. 5 locations, 10000 scarabs (yes that is ten thousand), 100 mountain goats, and less then a hundred turkeys. If something is not done soon, all of the other animals will be destroyed by the massive hordes of scarabs.


I am actively monitoring Shai and have reduced the scarabs manually now twice over the last two days. I will continue doing so until the pop is under control.

Frits wrote:But if you don't erase them, everytime one dies a few neat stacks of animalproducts would appear in townsquare and i think this would disrupt balance. And if you let them migrate they will end up in the next town where they may trigger the very same event. I've noticed the popnumbers for given species in adjacent locations are linked. That way you might end up with large number of evermigrating animals.


Animals dying natural death currently don't leave resources as far as I know. It was discussed, but never implemented (again, as far as I know).

I realize that you will have lots of travelling animals, but consider this:

1) The current overcrowding already does this. Reducing overcrowding triggers to specific species will actually lower the # of animals on the road (only the ones overcrowded will have increased migration chances, instead of all species in that location).

2) I plan to have spawn/death balanced enough that we should never see overcrowding like we have now again.

Frits wrote:I can add that tortoises remain rampant in certain areas of treefeather island but horses are also doing fine.


The tortoise population is actually crashing. The RD decided some time ago that their numbers were to high, and adjusted their values accordingly. Instead of manually reducing them, they have just been allowed to slowly die off. Eventually this drop will need to be corrected.

Frits wrote:Hunting is a factor in animalnumbers, there wil always be hunters with poor weapons and only sometimes hunters with good weapons (starting from comp recurve bow). You could look at lowering natural armors by 1 or 2... or more than 2 and then also changing animalhealthpoints. That's another way of regulating animalnumbers by one species at a time.


Hunting is a factor in animal numbers, but not a predictable one. I won't consider weakening animals until it is demonstrated clearly over a period of many months that the players in settled areas are simply incapable of controlling specific animal populations due to their toughness.
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formerly known as hf
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Postby formerly known as hf » Wed Apr 25, 2007 8:43 am

'Overcrowdin' if there is a cap per-species of animals should lead to death as well as just movement.

K-Isle has so many Buffalo because they breed at a fair rate, they are difficult to bring down and they can't swim.

If a location is 'overcrowded', they just move on to the next overcrowded location...

I imagine the same is for Burgeo, Omeo and other larger islands with historically sparse Cantrian populations...
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Chris Johnson
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Postby Chris Johnson » Wed Apr 25, 2007 9:27 am

Overcrowding does lead to death as well as migration already - Currently animals in overcrowded areas have shorter lifespans as well as higher chances of migration - There is no reason why we wouldn't do the same for species based overcrowding.


On another note - Cantr animal reproduction is parthenogenetic - only one parent is required to spawn another animal - not two as reported by Doug our new shepard - He has been correct on all other facts :)

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