Religion

[Nakranoth]

But then by that same reasoning, there's no need to ask, ever. If God knows all, it knows what we want and need and will give us what it will without verbalizing anything... which sounds to me an aweful lot like chance... and it's never benefited anyone who's died of cancer, or random violence, or so many other things that "God" has given us. What good father kills his children without remorse?

[west]

Atheism is counted as a religion, and your logic is flawed.

Sorry to resurrect the Thread of Doom, but I (after like 4 months) can't let this pass. Atheism is not a religion. It's a style of philosophy.

As someone cleverer than myself once said,

"Atheism is a religion in the same way that not-collecting-stamps is a hobby."

Calling atheism a religion is not only inaccurate, it is blatant wishful thinking on the part of theists who can't conceive of anyone having deeply-held beliefs that aren't tied to a system of blind faith. And not only that, calling atheism a religion totally destroys the meaning of the word 'religion'.

[Zanthos]

All i gotta say is all of you should take a class on the philosophy behind religion, it'll clear up any questions cocerning the father having remorse, ect...

It'll also end this stupid debate -_- let dead threads lie

[saztronic]

Atheism is counted as a religion, and your logic is flawed.

Sorry to resurrect the Thread of Doom, but I (after like 4 months) can't let this pass. Atheism is not a religion. It's a style of philosophy.

Sigh. west. priest of discordia. i like the new robes.

I would think it depends on how you define religion. For me, probably something along the lines of "belief in something that can't be experienced or proven." Like God. Or magic powers. Or WMD in Iraq.

But then, you can't disprove God either. So if you're an atheist, basically you believe in something that can't be proven (no God) or experienced (no God). How is this different from a theist?

Agnosticism, OK. Epistemelogical question about what we can or can't know -- belief or faith doesn't enter in. But atheism? Just as much a faith-based opinion as any other religion.

Hm. I think I like the Sex and Abstinence thread better.

[deadboy]

Atheism is counted as a religion, and your logic is flawed.

Sorry to resurrect the Thread of Doom, but I (after like 4 months) can't let this pass. Atheism is not a religion. It's a style of philosophy.

As someone cleverer than myself once said,

"Atheism is a religion in the same way that not-collecting-stamps is a hobby."

Calling atheism a religion is not only inaccurate, it is blatant wishful thinking on the part of theists who can't conceive of anyone having deeply-held beliefs that aren't tied to a system of blind faith. And not only that, calling atheism a religion totally destroys the meaning of the word 'religion'.

As a new Atheist I can now say yes, fair enough, Atheism is -not- a religion. Hell, I'd proabably be mildly, though only mildly as I really care very little any more, offended if anyone said I belong to a religion because I'm an atheist. Anyway, seeing as I'm doing philosophy next year, I happen to like this thread very much. So, just what haven't we already discussed?

[Elros]

But then by that same reasoning, there's no need to ask, ever. If God knows all, it knows what we want and need and will give us what it will without verbalizing anything... which sounds to me an aweful lot like chance... and it's never benefited anyone who's died of cancer, or random violence, or so many other things that "God" has given us. What good father kills his children without remorse?

Lets say that a father knows that his kid wants a new car, but he waits for his kid to ask him for it before he gives it to him. That is the same way God is with prayers. He wants us to pray and ask him for something when we need it. God is wonderful, and will give us gifts and things we need without ever having to ask sometimes, but other times he waits for us to ask. So, there is power and purpose in prayer.

[Pie]

But then by that same reasoning, there's no need to ask, ever. If God knows all, it knows what we want and need and will give us what it will without verbalizing anything... which sounds to me an aweful lot like chance... and it's never benefited anyone who's died of cancer, or random violence, or so many other things that "God" has given us. What good father kills his children without remorse?

GOD DAMMIT!!!

I've answerd this question SO MANY TIMES AND STILL.

It isn't god who does that. It's either the devil, germs, or the fact that the person just wouldn't SHUT UP, just like everyone in here, asking the same question over and over again. You can't expet god to cure a lady of obisity if she dose no work. He won't just make everything good.

Also, God cant just give things out to people, becaus every minor chang will compleatly change everyones life. No matter what it is, or how small and insignificant it may seem, it will change someone elses life.

Also, Athyism does rely on blind faith, on all of those theories out there that we only have speculation on. (such as, how did life come to form, if even we did have oxygin, carbon, and nytrogen (ext) in the atmostphere at the earths beggining, how did that form into bacteria? like legoes. They don't form themselves.) My point is, life CANNOT BE EXPLAINED without GOD!


oh, and deadboy, tell me.

Tell me one shard of evidence that can stand against this one point; JESUS. I've explained it SO MANY times, it's gotten tiering. He lived, we have historical proof, not to mention philosophical (why would anyone creat jesus, when they got nothing out of it besides persicution?) he died. (heck, this ones the easyest to explain. and of cours how he died is explained) he rose again (philisophical) It IS -THE- defining point of the christian faith. this right here, proves that god exists, that myracles happen, and tells us all the rules of life and the like.

Also, theres the fact of imposibility.

Life cannot be explained by 'it just happened.' As I've said before, you cannot get life from the building blocks of life without something helping it. Example of tihs: you cannot get a caslte from legos without working.

sorry that my spelling and thinking are bad. I'm just really sick of this.


Onto the next point. You are right, in partial. Pagen religions are started like that. but some religions are started with governmental fonding (Example, roman paganism, made to unite rome more.) others were formed when sertain natural phenominons happen. sometimes it can be explained. Sometimes it can be explained, but the coincedences are verry... coincedentall. Other times, it cannot. (example #1, solar eclips. #2, noas flood. #3, jesus' resurection, passover, and other biblical miracles.)

[Nakranoth]

Elros:
You've basically just stated, plain as day, that things happen randomly.

There's no sense in telling someone who's seen the sky "the sky is blue"... they already know and will do what they will, with or without your piping in.

Pie - "It isn't god who does that. It's either the devil, germs, or the fact that the person just wouldn't SHUT UP, just like everyone in here, asking the same question over and over again. You can't expet god to cure a lady of obisity if she dose no work. He won't just make everything good."

But at the same time you argue that God created everything. If God is Omipotent, and God made everything, then God made everything the way he wanted to, correct? If Evil exists, and God created everything the way he wanted, God created Evil. If God is entirely Good, God could not have created Evil. So, if Evil exists, there are three possibilities of its source: 1)God is not Omipotent (non-existence included) 2)God did not create everything (and thus is not the source of all. ie. Ominipotent) 3)God is not completely Good.

Please, Pie... Or anyone else. Solve this paradox.
Remember, God created Lucifer just the same as he created humans. If Lucifer was exactly as God wanted, then God wanted rebellion, and thus Evil, and no fully Good being could ever want Evil.


"Also, God cant just give things out to people, becaus every minor chang will compleatly change everyones life. No matter what it is, or how small and insignificant it may seem, it will change someone elses life."

An all-powerful being could in fact create a perfect reality, or else change this reality to be perfect for everyone. And before you pipe in with "free-will" remember that you could be in perfect bliss without it. Never missing it or wanting for it.


"My point is, life CANNOT BE EXPLAINED without GOD!"

There's where you're wrong... we know pretty well what young Earth was like... what the atmosphere was made up of, and that there was an excess of lightning. I'm not saying life is a chance thing. I'm saying it was an inevitibility of statistics. Only a matter of time before lightning hits gasses in the perfect configuration to create the first self-replicating thing. And unless you want to admit that all living things have souls (which by the way, Catholocism refuses) then all life is, is the correct grouping of atoms stuck together at the same time.


"Tell me one shard of evidence that can stand against this one point; JESUS. I've explained it SO MANY times, it's gotten tiering. He lived, we have historical proof, not to mention philosophical (why would anyone creat jesus, when they got nothing out of it besides persicution?) he died. (heck, this ones the easyest to explain. and of cours how he died is explained) he rose again (philisophical) It IS -THE- defining point of the christian faith. this right here, proves that god exists, that myracles happen, and tells us all the rules of life and the like."

All that can be proven is that there was a man named Jesus who was crusified. The rising from the dead part was something a few hopeful Jews of the day could easily invent, especially given the Assention thereafter. If the man you believed was the savior of your race was killed in front of you, would you not do the same thing? Then it was just another mystery cult among the crowds. The only reason Christianity is even known of today is its popularity with the lower class female populace of Rome... Also, keep in mind that only a couple, if any, of the people who actually wrote the New Testament ever laid eyes on the man named Jesus. It was the diciples to the Apostles that did the writing... several decades after the death of Jesus.

And Pie, before yelling at me that I didn't even read or else concider your arguments... make sure you've actually read and concidered my counter-arguments... and try to logically sort out a real and definitive answer.

[kinvoya]

Why did the lower-class females of Rome like Christianity so much?

[Nakranoth]

It offered a hopeful afterlife to their currently bleak oppression... it treated them as equals in the afterlife. Like telling a starving person that they'll get all the food they'd ever wanted when they died... remember, good afterlives before these were reserved for war heroes.

[kinvoya]

Hmmm...interesting. Plus, I like your bunny.

[deadboy]

You can't expet god to cure a lady of obisity if she dose no work. He won't just make everything good.

So the example you are giving is one in which the women herself is "curing" herself, with god playing no part whatsoever. That's a very poor anecdote, although you'd be hard pressed to find a better one.

Also, God cant just give things out to people, becaus every minor chang will compleatly change everyones life. No matter what it is, or how small and insignificant it may seem, it will change someone elses life.

And yet if God wanted the best for all of us he would change our lives for the better, whilst still allowing us free will. Take for example that Christianity teaches that he created the devil to give us free will. So before there was a devil, are you saying that I couldn't freely go out and beat someone to death. Don't see why I need a devil for "evil" to exist, and then infective germs, just what "good" is God doing by making us sick. Oh yes, please bear in mind that the answer to this has been changed by Christians every few hundred years, first it was punishment to us, then it wasn't, then it was, what's your explaination? Mine is that paracitic germs are a natural evolutionary being which are inevitably going to come into existance in any form of life, including computer simulations created to test it.

Also, Athyism does rely on blind faith, on all of those theories out there that we only have speculation on. (such as, how did life come to form, if even we did have oxygin, carbon, and nytrogen (ext) in the atmostphere at the earths beggining, how did that form into bacteria? like legoes. They don't form themselves.) My point is, life CANNOT BE EXPLAINED without GOD!

This is -not- blind faith. Blind faith means believing in something when there is little or no proof. However, this is Science. It is based upon theories which are tested, improved, scrapped if they are proved wrong, and refined to be as accurate as possible. It may be a while before we can definitively prove the origins of life but for now we at least very, very closely know to the extent is is bordering on fact that the first thing that came into being was amino acids, due to a chemical process we have managed to recreate using the conditions found on the early Earth. These amino acids then folded into proteins, these proteins then formed very primitive versions of RNa, by which point you have the capability for reproduction and life with no competitors would have bloomed extremely quickly. Potentially, this actually happened on another planet like Earth, and then then the early form bacteria travelled in a spore state to the Earth, although I'm not certai nif we ever found fossils of life on Mars although I'm fairly certain we did, this would be proof it could happen either between us and Mars or Mars and us. As the Earth had the correct conditions however it is more likely it merely began here. Now, yes, your answer will be "But the chance of that happening is miniscule, it must have been God having a guiding hand in making all those chemicals do that". However, the universe is infinite. That means that the amount of planets with the capability to form life is infinite. And what -that- means is no matter how unlikely it is something will happen on a single planet, within the universe it is an Absolute certainty that it will happen. Therefore, there is no way that life couldn't exist, we as the products just feel its damned lucky it happened with us. So, try and tell me again that life is impossible without god

oh, and deadboy, tell me.

Tell me one shard of evidence that can stand against this one point; JESUS. I've explained it SO MANY times, it's gotten tiering. He lived, we have historical proof, not to mention philosophical (why would anyone creat jesus, when they got nothing out of it besides persicution?) he died. (heck, this ones the easyest to explain. and of cours how he died is explained) he rose again (philisophical) It IS -THE- defining point of the christian faith. this right here, proves that god exists, that myracles happen, and tells us all the rules of life and the like.

Alright then, let me start to answer all the bits and pieces of this. So, to begin with: Yes, there is proof a man called Jesus lived at roughly the same time. Now ask yourself, is this proof he was God? Let me take an example, that Black Jesus guy recently who sacrificed virgins and the like, he claimed he was God, in two thousand years time, if I proved he existed, would it prove he was God? No, it would prove he existed. So then, Jesus may have existed, or perhaps it is merely co-incidence that someone with the same name lived at the same time as him. In any case, Jesus was a good philosopher, so good in fact that he made the people that followed him believe he was God, but he was only a philosopher, along the lines of Plato and the like. I'm sorry to tell you Pie but the defining point of Christian faith is lies.

To explain why, I'm going to answer your second point, why would anyone create Jesus as it only led to persecution. Right, well now, let's begin with the Christian version of events of Christianity starting. So then, Jesus has just died, and his followers are left behind. They either believed he was God or not, but either way the leaders have a large following and know they could have an even larger one by claiming that he is God because religion is a tried and tested method of gaining followers. To them it wouldn't matter as they would still be passing on his teachings, and, to be frank, gaining themselves power at the same time, and to a peasant power is not something to be passed aside. That's one reason for them creating Jesus

Or the second and probably true version. You know there were hundreds and hundreds of gospels? Right, well, the -Romans- were the ones who created the bible, who decided which books went in or not. Now, gullible people will by that time have made them believe within themselves that Jesus was not merely a philosopher but instead a God because it made them feel safe and special and people need that. Therefore, they would write gospels saying this, and most likely it would become quite a widespread belief. Now, Jesus in the sense he is today would have been created at that time when the Romans created the bible as it is well known that the reason they created the bible was to control the masses who were now beginning to believe in it - "Religion is the opiate of the masses, Karl Marx". So then, the way they could control the people best is with a religion- ie. that Jesus was a God, and so it became so. In the end it all boils down to power, the Roman's having power over the people or the people thinking they hold some power over the Romans.

Example of tihs: you cannot get a caslte from legos without working

Yes you can, it is merely highly unlikely. But if infinite numbers of planets had infinite numbers of lego bricks then it is a certainty that on one planet the bricks will just fall down into the right position, or be struck into place by lightening, or washed into place by the sea, or any number of other things.

Onto the next point. You are right, in partial. Pagen religions are started like that. but some religions are started with governmental fonding (Example, roman paganism, made to unite rome more.) others were formed when sertain natural phenominons happen. sometimes it can be explained. Sometimes it can be explained, but the coincedences are verry... coincedentall. Other times, it cannot. (example #1, solar eclips. #2, noas flood. #3, jesus' resurection, passover, and other biblical miracles.)

Alright then, to start, sorry to tell you this Pie but thats exactly how Christianity was started as well, governmental funding. Oh, and Paganism is merely the word for a defunct religion, I don't particularly like it, Christianity will become "Pagan" eventually once everyone stops believing in it, or at least the majority, I know three "Pagans" (Although they also don't like the term) who each believe in different religions. Remember that millions of people believed in them too but now if I told you them you'd think they're completely tosh, but, well, such is the way of religion, people don't realise how much rubbish it is until it is all gone. Anyway, the final point you made. The reason we cannot explain the miracles is either because they are untrue or because they are not written in a way that we can explain them. Take for example Moses crossing the red sea, well, there's one we have managed to explain if it did happen - very good timing. At around the same time (These things are so old that we can only say around in the hundreds of years around the same timeish) a volcanoe near the sea erupted resulting in a huge earthquake. The result of this was a tsunami. Now, what therefore potentially could have happened was, like it would with a large tsunami, the sea first became very shallow as water was pulled into the wave (Think of it like a nuke) so the people crossed it very quickly whilst it was like this (I couldn't say how long this would be, I think around five hours). Then, as the egyptions were chasing them, the tsunami broke and flooded back into the sea, drowning them. There you are, miracle explained. Now give me a shred of proof that Christianity is real. Just the one would make me even begin to take arguing about it seriously

[Zanthos]

can we please just shut up about this -_-

Neither side is ever going to convince the other because neither side knows why the other side thinks the way they do.

This thread was nice and dead, lets let it return to that state.

[formerly known as hf]

Note to deadboy:
I've had more luck engaging pebbles in two-way conversations on theism...

[Pie]

But at the same time you argue that God created everything. If God is Omipotent, and God made everything, then God made everything the way he wanted to, correct? If Evil exists, and God created everything the way he wanted, God created Evil. If God is entirely Good, God could not have created Evil. So, if Evil exists, there are three possibilities of its source: 1)God is not Omipotent (non-existence included) 2)God did not create everything (and thus is not the source of all. ie. Ominipotent) 3)God is not completely Good.

no. It means that he's given us choises. He created evil, becaus he didn't want us to just be little machines always worshiping him. He wanted us to truely love him, that's why he created the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, to test adam and eve. But he has a verry -hands off- approach, in my knowledge. He will only do a miracle if it is compleatly necesary, and it won't effect someone els in a bad way.

And who are you to say that this world isn't the best option that god had? IF he exists (wich I will prove in a little bit) then he is definately smarter, than... hmm... you, maby? Maby in his infinate knowledge, he saw all of the other options availible to him, and he chose this one becaus it's the only way for us to have free will, and the best posibility.

Please, Pie... Or anyone else. Solve this paradox.
Remember, God created Lucifer just the same as he created humans. If Lucifer was exactly as God wanted, then God wanted rebellion, and thus Evil, and no fully Good being could ever want Evil.

Evil is just another way to test us. Get over it and move on with your life. God isn't going to breast feed us (if he has breasts, that is) and alot of the evil in the world, is caused by someone els in the world, who has a gun, and an itchy finger.

"Also, God cant just give things out to people, becaus every minor chang will compleatly change everyones life. No matter what it is, or how small and insignificant it may seem, it will change someone elses life."

An all-powerful being could in fact create a perfect reality, or else change this reality to be perfect for everyone. And before you pipe in with "free-will" remember that you could be in perfect bliss without it. Never missing it or wanting for it.

ok then. would you choos to have no free will? Right now, choos.

he chose for us to have free will so that we will have a choise, and so that we could choos him. Does that seem so implosable? that he wanted us to love him becaus of him? instead of becaus it was programmed into our robot minds?

There's where you're wrong... we know pretty well what young Earth was like... what the atmosphere was made up of, and that there was an excess of lightning. I'm not saying life is a chance thing. I'm saying it was an inevitibility of statistics. Only a matter of time before lightning hits gasses in the perfect configuration to create the first self-replicating thing. And unless you want to admit that all living things have souls (which by the way, Catholocism refuses) then all life is, is the correct grouping of atoms stuck together at the same time.

you aren't listening. I'll give you the basics. IN THE BEGGINING, according to evolution, the earth was void. It had the basic gasses,( sulfer, carbon, maby nitrogen) and there was an exes of lightning.

BUT, theyv tested this. THEY PUT ALL of the gasses that geologists thought were there in the beginning, and ran an electrical current through the tube a foot or two above it. They got nothing.

AND EVEN IF, by some MIRACLE(I just said it, one mirical is already required) that even out of SULFER, you can get the building blocks of life, YOU WILL NOT get a germ. Let me explain it this way.

I get a test tube. a steril test tube. I put in all of the building blocks of life in there. Heck, let's make it more interesting. I'll poke a germ, and let it's guts spill out. it's all steril, I have the building blocks of life in there. Hey, why don't we run some electricity through it? do you know what you will get?

Bread.

(no, not really. but you sure as heck won't get life.)

Here's a quote from the wikipidia.

Given that the origin of life is proposed to have proceeded by spontaneous chemical reaction, the chemistry concerned should presumably be rather robust and therefore relatively easy to repeat. The fact that it is proving very difficult to do so is a major challenge for researchers in this field, suggesting they may be focusing on the wrong locations, and on the wrong initial chemistry.

All that can be proven is that there was a man named Jesus who was crusified. The rising from the dead part was something a few hopeful Jews of the day could easily invent, especially given the Assention thereafter. If the man you believed was the savior of your race was killed in front of you, would you not do the same thing? Then it was just another mystery cult among the crowds. The only reason Christianity is even known of today is its popularity with the lower class female populace of Rome... Also, keep in mind that only a couple, if any, of the people who actually wrote the New Testament ever laid eyes on the man named Jesus. It was the diciples to the Apostles that did the writing... several decades after the death of Jesus.

if my savior was killed, no I wouldn't. I would cry. And then sob. and then get on with my life.

but that is not the case with what happened.

Now, with all other religions, and of cours all of those WAKY cristian religions, there proficies, didn't happen, so they made something up, that it would happen again. Also, with them, it was always the coming of someone that didn't happen.

With cristianity, it's diffent. When jesus died, what should have happened, is that the apostles cry for a while, then maby, deny that it happend, and say that he was testing them with his death, and that he WOULD rise from the dead.

But what they said, is that he DID rise from the dead. and they have proof. The empty tombe cannot be explained. And how they met jesus on the path? that cannot be explained. And how he appeard to 500 other people? that cannot be explained.

becaus holusinations don't happen that way.

sorry for bad spelling in this post.[/quote]