Turn 2310 - Game over?

[Zanthos]

very true, though conditions just might be ripe. Don't hold me to that though, i could be completly wrong and have no support and then where would i be?

[schroederjj2003]

why worry about it. if there is massive death. i hope to be around to collect the spoils.

[Zanthos]

not everything interesting requires massive deaths to occur.

[Pie]

yea, only the really cool things.

[Arlequin]

Why not just: crossbow frame, crossbow mechanism, and bowstring?

Because if you want a simple weapon, you can make a steel battle axe.

Unless the character is a bowman, it shouldn't matter for his goal if he wields a battle axe or a crossbow, or any other high quality weapon. Only powergamers are afraid of losing an edge by doing 5HP less of damage per hit. And if you are active enough to roleplay, you can go around with any 30's weapon.

Again, if the goal of a character is to make the most complicated thing, why complain because the thing is complicated? If it isn't his goal, then why is he trying to? And if he still wants it, why not pay to get it done?

[Solfius]

Because if you want a simple weapon, you can make a steel battle axe.
...

Again, if the goal of a character is to make the most complicated thing, why complain because the thing is complicated? If it isn't his goal, then why is he trying to? And if he still wants it, why not pay to get it done?

I didn't say I wanted the crossbow to be a simple weapon, just simpler.

At the moment I think it's unreasonably complicated. Now, it can be just as complex, with similar build requirements, but less complicated to make by changing the objects required and reducing the number of separate projects involved. It would be the same object, take the same amount of time, require the same materials, but you wouldn't need to have 7 or so separate projects.

More importantly, the crossbow was an example. I wanted to provoke a general discussion about how realistic our game ought to be. What is the best balance between the complicated real world and a more simple game world.

On the one hand we want the game to be realistic, but not at the expense of fun. Where do we draw the line?

[formerly known as hf]

On the one hand we want the game to be realistic, but not at the expense of fun. Where do we draw the line?

I think the fact that there's been so many conversations about how 'unfun' recent changes have been (reapirs / fuel) indicates just which side of the line the game's steaming towards.

[Zanthos]

Well as for fuel, i dont think this changes the fun/ unfun spectrum at all. if anything, it adds to the possibilities and could promote inter regional cooperation. Not every town needs to produce fuel, so there could be centrilized fueling points which trade for oil and water from sourrounding areas and then exports the fuel.

[the_antisocial_hermit]

Yea, it's on the unfun side because more people may feel more inclined to avoid making any motorized vehicles whereas before they might would've made that a goal. I know I feel much less inclined to ever mess with vehicles in the future. Too many long-term worries and upkeep (for a game). Maybe if it spreads like people for it hope, I'll change my mind.

[Zanthos]

Well, i know one of my charries is actively working on producing fuel in large quantities, and our town doesnt even have a motorized vehicle, although towns in the area do. We happen to be the only place around with oil, so awsome for us.

[Slowness_Incarnate]

There really is alot to explain in this game.Somehow over time it has lost that "magic". I know there is no real "magic" in cantr..but for me its lost that charm and fun that it used to have. The people that used to play, some of them are gone. When the community base changes, the roleplay changes, and not always for the better. I'm not saying that the roleplay has gotten horrendous though either. I think it was an inevitable change. I started playing this game when I was in high school! Perhaps I've just started to outgrow it..and maybe some of those who left..have also outgrown it..

[psymann]

Trying to think about why I don't spend more time playing than I do...

1) The lag. I've noticed improvements recently, but it's still not quick to load pages. At least I've been able to bring some characters out of locked buildings as I feel I have time to play them again now.

2) The 200 minute limit, twinned with the survival necessities.

My problem is that my minutes are spent:
a) Organising each character to have the right food.
b) Making sure each character has a project to do, and that each of those lasts a suitable amount of time.
c) Getting most of my characters to attack their local animals.
d) Getting distracted, this is a real annoyance - the phone rings, the radio gets interesting, a friend logs into instant messenger, I check the Wiki or Forum for something, or even I write a note in Cantr iteself! - fifteen minutes later I try to continue playing Cantr, but of course either my next click eats 15 mins of my clock in one go, or I have to re-load the homepage and start again which takes ages in itself.

By the time I've seen to my characters' needs, wasted half the time by wanting to play Cantr in bits and having to restart every time in order to do it, and saved a few minutes in case I need them for something important later, there are not a lot left.

Having more, or unlimited, minutes to play would allow me to feel I can play fully when I have time. For example, last week I had a day off, and would happily have played Cantr on-and-off for 16 hours... but after a few hours, I accidentally wasted 60 minutes by doing something else for an hour and coming back and clicking on something without thinking, and after I'd done what I had to do, I had only about 60 minutes left for the rest of the day, which I wanted to save in case someone that I needed to talk to woke up and I could trade with them.

With more minutes, and without the pressure not to waste them, I'd have more time on lazy days to RP more.

3) Small communities.
My characters' locations have the following numbers of people (including them):
a) 4 (outside)
b) 20 (outside), 7 (inside, working for others) or 2 (inside working for self)
c) 4 (outside)
d) 8 (outside) or 2 (inside working)
e) 25 (outside), 7 (inside, working for others) or 1 (inside working for self)
f) 2 (outside)

Only a third of my characters are in areas where there are over ten people in any one place at any one time. And of that third, they are in the busy areas only a quarter of their time because the other three-quarters of the time they are working on projects that necessarily take place in buildings.

It's hard to RP lots when there are only three other people around, and one is asleep, one doesn't RP much, and the other is a simpleton by nature and barely communicates when RPing properly.

4. Stuck in one window.
I once had a character in four different rounds of War of Empires at the same time. I was able to open four different windows, and play all four of them in parallel, switching between them whenever I liked, coming back to each one exactly where I left it.

In Cantr I can't do this. If I open and log into a second window, one of the two stops working and asks me to log in again. I have to play the characters in serial. So if I'm having a conversation with one character, I can either stay logged in to that one, waiting for the replies to come back, or I can log out, log in to a different one, and then (a) not notice when the first is replied to, and (b) have to faff around logging back in to the first one later.

To speed things up, I've played WoE in upwards of about 30 windows before now in depserate times... but I can't do the same in Cantr. I'd like to open 7 animal pages at the same time in different tabs, so I can come back a couple of minutes later and attack seven different animals with seven different weapons or different powers... but I can't; I have to go through them one by one.

5. Leaving and joining projects every time I want to walk around.
I really see a simple solution to this one. Say I am making string in a building. I want to go outside and chat to the town leader for a while, then come back.

What I currently do:
- click to abandon project
- click location
- click to leave
- click activities
- click to rejoin my farming project in the outside world
- click events
- talk to town leader for a few hours
- click to abandon project
- click buildings
- click enter
- click activites
- click to rejoin string project

Imagine if:
a) You automatically abandoned the project if you left the area
b) You rejoined the most recent project you worked on when you enter an area.
Then I would:
- click location
- click to leave
- talk to town leader for a few hours
- click buildings
- click enter

Much easier. There have been times when I would like to have gone outside, said hello to people, and come back in again, but the amount of time taken to faff with joining and leaving projects has put me off, so I've just stayed put. Especially as after leaving a project, I don't trust the game not to go unavailable on me and prevent me from joining it again.



And with the forum:
6) Making me feel unvalued
A few things conspire to make me feel I waste my time on the forum sometimes.
a) On 21 Nov 2006, I posted a message in Moderation Request forum. On 23 Dec 2006, I bumped it. Still have had no reply to that; the request has not been dealt with, not an explanation given of why not.
b) On 15 Nov 2006, I posted a suggestion in Suggestions forum, called "graphic for breaking off task" - or rather T-shirt posted it on my behalf. It was discussed for two days, and we came to an agreement, the final post being Jos saying "nice suggestions, psymann" on 17 Nov 2006. After months of nothing happening - neither in-game or even being moved to accepted suggestions forum - I bumped it on 7 Feb 2007. No reply. T-shirt bumped it again on 25 Feb 2007. Two replies - one a little addition to the idea, the other telling T-shirt off for bumping the topic. I then bumped it again on 1 Mar 2007, explaining why I was continuing to bump it - and again no reply.
This was a pretty simple request, it found agreement and no opposition, yet after over four months, it's not even been accepted/rejected by a member of staff, let alone implemented. As I said on 1 Mar, it's frustrating.
http://www.cantr.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... sc&start=0
c) A while ago, someone in RD had been saying in a post somewhere that they could do with help. I offered to try to help a bit. I was told I had to apply for a position. Apart from checking legal requirements, I didn't exactly have to send in my CV and fill in application forms when offering to help at the local charity shop some years ago. If you would like my help, ask me for it, and I'll help where it's something I am useful at (sorry marketing people, marketing is not my thing). If you need me to apply for a position, you clearly don't need me, so I'll not bother to help.



Couple of other comments:
- The learning curve? It really isn't steep. All you do is talk, collect things, build things, and walk around. Not a lot. If a newspawn can't work out what to do, then the interface isn't good enough (I've already mentioned how confusing the projects are to leave/quit/etc). If the symbols make sense, if the tool-tips are there to help, then it's really not hard. If I can use this forum without someone showing me what to do all the time, I can use Cantr. As a newspawn, I don't need help on game mechanics, I need someone to talk to me. This game has the easiest curve of almost any I've tried playing - mainly because there is almost no complicated maths needed to work out how to get on.
- Crossbows etc being too complicated, or vechicles too expensive? You need complicated things, or everyone will have them and it's not impressive any more. Ok, maybe the crossbow has a few too many bits and bobs, but not by much. Not everyone I know has a yacht. That's because they're very expensive. Not everyone in the middle ages owned a beautiful sword. I am never going to be managing director of my company; I am never going to own a 10-bedroom house; I am never going to have a yacht or a ferrari; I am never going to have holidays on desert islands twice a year... similarly, most of my characters will never own a car; will never own a boat; will never run a town; will never own a crossbow. That's fine. They might get one of those special things if they work hard or they're lucky. If players expect all their characters to have a hall, a galleon, a sports car and a steel-making business, then it's their expectations you need to change, not the game. And as for this business about whether a fork spanner is the same as a wrench - who cares - the point is that to make the game's more formidable weapon, you need a number of complex tools. What they are called, look like, or whatever is pretty irrelevant. The point is you don't make a crossbow just using a standard easy-to-come-by hammer.
I like having some things that are really hard to build that I can aspire to and probably never reach. Maybe there is sense in having a few more things that can be built with simple animal products and common unprocessed goods, to give newbies more choice early on.

psymann

[the_antisocial_hermit]

And with the forum:
6) Making me feel unvalued
A few things conspire to make me feel I waste my time on the forum sometimes.
a) On 21 Nov 2006, I posted a message in Moderation Request forum. On 23 Dec 2006, I bumped it. Still have had no reply to that; the request has not been dealt with, not an explanation given of why not.

I'm not sure I remember seeing it. Part of the reason might be because no one on CD really has the time to do that atm. If I have time, I might try within the next few weeks, but don't hold me to it. I have a lot of stuff to do when I'm not at work (which I spend 8hrs a day constantly staring at a computer screen anyway) and though I might be on IRC or check Cantr a lot during my evenings, it doesn't require me to sit there going through things. I usually am away from the comp most the time doing things I need to get done.

b) On 15 Nov 2006, I posted a suggestion in Suggestions forum, called "graphic for breaking off task" - or rather T-shirt posted it on my behalf. It was discussed for two days, and we came to an agreement, the final post being Jos saying "nice suggestions, psymann" on 17 Nov 2006. After months of nothing happening - neither in-game or even being moved to accepted suggestions forum - I bumped it on 7 Feb 2007. No reply. T-shirt bumped it again on 25 Feb 2007. Two replies - one a little addition to the idea, the other telling T-shirt off for bumping the topic. I then bumped it again on 1 Mar 2007, explaining why I was continuing to bump it - and again no reply.
This was a pretty simple request, it found agreement and no opposition, yet after over four months, it's not even been accepted/rejected by a member of staff, let alone implemented. As I said on 1 Mar, it's frustrating.
http://www.cantr.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... sc&start=0

Yea, and Surly just recently had a simple suggestion moved to accepted that was over 760 days old with no opposition. A lot of things will get a lot of good feedback and a "let's do it!" even from staff, but they won't move it or if they do, it still doesn't get implemented for years. There are so many simple things that have been suggested, and resuggested over and over through the years that still haven't been implemented.

c) A while ago, someone in RD had been saying in a post somewhere that they could do with help. I offered to try to help a bit. I was told I had to apply for a position. Apart from checking legal requirements, I didn't exactly have to send in my CV and fill in application forms when offering to help at the local charity shop some years ago. If you would like my help, ask me for it, and I'll help where it's something I am useful at (sorry marketing people, marketing is not my thing). If you need me to apply for a position, you clearly don't need me, so I'll not bother to help.

Well, you don't want to let people that haven't properly applied and been approved to get their hands in the database, do you? Maybe the person needed some help within the database which you couldn't get to. Maybe they would rather have some feedback from someone who has worked specifically with the Cantr database for awhile. I don't know.. But the application process is necessary because of some of the information and such a person is going to encounter as a staff member, especially in RD, ProgD and PD.

As for the lag, I don't know. I don't have a problem with lag (most of the time) when Cantr works properly (meaning not going down), either at work or at home.

People have suggested more time than 200 min.. but that might cause lag again. It was put into place on purpose, because they used to run out of bandwidth every month. I personally think 300 would be a better cap, but it's workable, even if it kind of sucks that most of it is used up by doing technical things. There are lots of ways to conserve minutes though.. except you say you have a lot of lag, so.. I guess they don't help that much.

As for small communities, either try to get the community to grow or inspire the people there (I know, it's really really hard... >.<) or move your chars somewhere larger.. Cantr is so big that it's going to mostly have a lot of small communities. 2k-3k players don't even begin to fill 90k locations.

The window thing... I dunno. I'm indifferent to it, because I'd get lost and forget who I'm working on if I had more than one up.

I sorta like the project thing you mentioned. Maybe not join it automatically when you get back in, but to automatically quit it when you leave the location would be good.

[psymann]

I might try within the next few weeks, but don't hold me to it. I have a lot of stuff to do when I'm not at work.

It wasn't meant as a dig at staff, obviously volunteering to staff a game comes second to real life . I suppose the point is that while it's completely understandable, it is still sub-ideal. I don't personally expect "ideal" from a free game, but it remains something that could be improved if there was a way to do so.

c) A while ago, someone in RD had been saying in a post somewhere that they could do with help. I offered to try to help a bit. I was told I had to apply for a position.

Well, you don't want to let people that haven't properly applied and been approved to get their hands in the database, do you? ... the application process is necessary because of some of the information and such a person is going to encounter as a staff member, especially in RD, ProgD and PD.

Does everyone really need access to the database?
Surely RD, for example, need people to:
- take ideas from accepted suggestions and create a To Do list for RD.
- move ideas to implemented suggestions when implemented.
- write notes about changes to put on the news feed when this is necessary
- work out resource quantities to use on new objects to keep them consistent with other objects.
- look through existing objects and pick out oddities (like a shelf costing three quarters the amount of a shack, and a table and four chairs needing more wood than a whole cottage) and fix them.
- make the additions/changes to the database.

Only a small amount of time is spent in the database, and I'm sure you could have members who just helped out with the numbers and ideas and consistencies...?

Because after all, what could I put on an application form? "I am psymann, I am Mr Honesty UK 2006, I have been a web-game moderator for the last 34 years with no problems, I have a special gene that makes me more honest and hardworking than other humans, my job involves database manipulation for MI5, as well as data manipulation and presentation, just right for the RD roles above..." Given you have no idea who I really am, and all you know about me is my web-name, the fact that my posts are too long, the fact this forum has a tendency to make me grumpy, and, if you look into the game's back end, that my characters are all of average quality at best - it makes it impossible for you to know if anything I put on the application form is true...!

There are lots of ways to conserve minutes though...

There are - but writing all my notes in notepad and copying them over; forever logging out and back in again; concentrating 100% on Cantr and avoiding distractions; all these are things that are not fun. And I play to have fun. If it costs more in enjoyment to save the minutes than I get back by playing them, I won't bother.

The window thing... I dunno. I'm indifferent to it, because I'd get lost and forget who I'm working on if I had more than one up.

Not just different people though. Just earlier, I wanted to talk to someone on the events view, but I wanted to talk about something I had written down on a note. What I wanted to do was have the note open in one window, and the events view open in the other. What I actually had to do was copy the note into Word, and then read from there.

Another example is giving food to ten people at once. Rather than going through one by one, I want to go to the people page once, open each new person in a separate tab, copy and paste the amount to give them all the way through, and then send them all. Easier to remember who I've done, and quicker to complete...


psymann

[Black Canyon]

Because after all, what could I put on an application form? "I am psymann, I am Mr Honesty UK 2006, I have been a web-game moderator for the last 34 years with no problems, I have a special gene that makes me more honest and hardworking than other humans, my job involves database manipulation for MI5, as well as data manipulation and presentation, just right for the RD roles above..." Given you have no idea who I really am, and all you know about me is my web-name, the fact that my posts are too long, the fact this forum has a tendency to make me grumpy, and, if you look into the game's back end, that my characters are all of average quality at best - it makes it impossible for you to know if anything I put on the application form is true...!

I am puzzled at why you are so resistant to filling out an application if you'd be willing to do all those other things you gave as examples. Of course anyone can make up anything and put it in an application. And that goes for any application for any job, not just a volunteer job with a web-based game. I can assure you that the applications are read very carefully and often the recommendation made to hire or not is based on the way that questions are answered and the thought put into the responses, not on any information that might result from a background check

One issue that we consider is whether we feel that the person has enough interest and commitment to stick around long enough to even get through training. And if there is not enough there to make the effort to fill out an application... there is probably not enough there.