Turn 2310 - Game over?

[Arlequin]

Maybe too many characters got caught on trying to keep a whole local economy to achieve their RP goals without realizing they only need a limited amount of things, like five iron shields and five weapons.

You can skip many steps if you focus on what are you really trying to do. Buy the tools you don't need to produce yourself, rent the ones you will use once, trade instead of building more machines. Make a list and striketrough anything you won't need for your role. I bet you'll be able to count everything with one hand.

One of my characters is building up a colony of woodworkers. He had everything he needed long ago: two steel axes, some iron shields, a longboat and a smoker. Beyond that, playing the role has been far more productive and fun than expanding the technology. And the technology is expanding faster because when you use your role and let others use their roles you can exploit their specialties better instead of have everyone trying to be the orchestra-man.

Seriously, 99% of the character roles doesn't involve building a sports car.

[SekoETC]

Well said Arlequin. But sometimes it happens that there's a smith in town, you ask them a couple of times if you could buy some iron and they totally ignore you. So what's left to do is try your luck in some other town or build your own smelter and gather your own resources. Many people end up doing the latter since back in the old days no one wanted to sell iron because no raw resource was worth it, or no common processed things like hemp cloth.

[Doug R.]

I still don't understand how simplifying manufacturing is going to improve rp. And if it can't, then what do we do?

My favorite character, and the one I liked to RP the most, spent most of his days out of necessity inside his cottage, because the machines he needed to be using could only be built indoors. Everyone knows most of the action in a town takes place outside, yet most of the manufacturing processes are designed in such a way as to force people into isolation.

And don't tell me that multiple people working on an indoor project can still talk. We all know that -never- happens, because there's not a damn thing to talk about if nothing is "happening."

[sanchez]

I see that point, Doug. Because of weight limits, I've had to spread machines through several buildings, which can mean, in smaller towns, separating your most active chars to man them.

But what would you do about that?

[kinvoya]

Would it be possible to add a porch or windows to a building which enabled the people inside to see and hear what is going on outside and vice versa? Of course this would absolutely take away privacy inside the building unless there was something like the door lock where you could open or close the window/door.

[sanchez]

Yeah, windows: http://www.cantr.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2080 , among others. Might help. Might just add to noise.

[kinvoya]

This is one of those things that would promote roleplay but gets overlooked for stuff like repairs and petrol.

[Solfius]

I still don't understand how simplifying manufacturing is going to improve rp. And if it can't, then what do we do?

I think any changes proposed at this point ought to be directed at engaging new players. Producing more things with primitive levels of technology may be a way. It takes time to learn to rp. What keeps people logging in while they learn, or if noone speaks? Complicated manufacturing processes for luxury items provides long term goals.

I was never talking about improving RP. My point was that technology requirements are becoming increasingly overwhelming, which for new players makes most things worth making seem impossible.

The fact that achieving anything interesting is extremely complicated doesn't encourage people to play. Note I said complicated, not difficult, as many people will persevere at a difficult task if it's worth achieving, but if the task is so complicated it's difficult to even plan how to achieve it most people will give up.

I'll use an example of something that's nice and simple: the wooden shield.

In Cantr you need a hammer and some wood.

Now, to make a real wooden shield (using information on Roman shields), you need to cut the some planks to size, using a saw, and glue the planks together in 3 layers, then you need to cover the shield with leather, cloth, or paint to help protect it from the weather, and edge it with rawhide, leather, or metal. You also need a handle or strap of some kind to hold it, and that was normally achieved by having a hole in the middle, covered by a "boss" (metal dome) with an iron/wooden bar across it.

Now, the second description is more accurate and realistic, and it is also far too complicated for all but a few dedicated individuals to bother to make.

Imagine if, similar to the crossbow, you had to make a metal dome, a handle, leather, iron edging, and glue and then once you also had the tools assemble it.

How many new players would try to make one?

A crossbow requires: crossbow prod, bowstring, crossbow stirrup, crossbow stock, crossbow trigger, bow iron, revolving nut.

Why not just: crossbow frame, crossbow mechanism, and bowstring?

The materials used can be the same (although there is a similar issue with the tools required for the various projects). That way instead of having to start 7 individual projects, you only need to do 3 (the length of time can be the same, it just makes the whole process less painful)

I think that splitting an object into more than 3 semi-finished objects is overcomplicating the construction, unless there really are more than 3 distinct sections that cannot possibly be grouped together in some way.

Similarly, I think that any tool that is a variation on another common tool is too specialist. E.g. the peen hammer, flatter, and set hammer which are all very similar and could simply be replaced with a single "Blacksmiths Hammer".

[Schme]

I think the crossbow, being the most powerful armorment, should remain the at the same level of complexity. However, it's a good example. I entirely see your point.

But the crossbow should stay the same. A highly developed or rich town, with a bit of unity, can actually mass produce them. You just need a few carving knives, really.

[Doug R.]

Similarly, I think that any tool that is a variation on another common tool is too specialist. E.g. the peen hammer, flatter, and set hammer which are all very similar and could simply be replaced with a single "Blacksmiths Hammer".

Right on. The less crap one has to repair, the better.

[wichita]

For what it's worth, I am one of those players that tries to keep characters indoors as much as possible because there is so much activity outside. It would be nice if there was some way to increase interaction without having to force the in-your-face nature of a hyperactive day.

[Zanthos]

as for having crap to repair, i do repairs about once every 5 years... use based decay really helpped out a ton.

[west]

I agree. It's much to complicated.

I forget where I read this, but someone said somewhere on this thing "Cantr is still coasting off the time when people could rip iron right out of the ground."

I believe this to be true.

Certainly true in my case.

I love cantr, I really do, but I simply do not have time to play the game as it is currently implemented. The only two characters I have left are in their 80s and really haven't had to work for anything material in the past 40 or so game years, except food and keeping up with repairs.

I have tried dozens, almost scores of times, to create new characters, but they've always languished because the game simply requires too much time to play these days. And this is from a player who has been around close to five years. I understand the mechanics. I love the in-game history that has been built up. But the game, as it is now, is simply not interesting enough to warrant its ever-increasing complexity.

Instead, I've been getting into Dungeons and Dragons. I only need to spend one or two three-hour blocks per week, but I'm hanging out with real people, constantly being involved in my characters' actions and having fun in real time. It doesn't require the constant low-level attention of mere survival or frequent high-level attention of actual meaningful interaction that cantr does. And although I spend more time on D&D than cantr in any given week, it is because I have an incentive to play D&D, and nothing but fond but fading memories and diminishing interest to maintain me in cantr.

I have many great memories of cantr, but I just don't think it's worth my limited time anymore. I keep two characters around, true, but they represent my last vestiges of interest in in-game history, not any sympathy for the current game build.

[Zanthos]

Well, if one of my charries gets his way, things might begin to get interesting on cantr island ;p

[west]

Well, if one of my charries gets his way, things might begin to get interesting on cantr island ;p

Don't make promises you can't keep