Why improving this?

[Sicofonte]

Recently, some people ask for a improvement in the baking proyects at the oven, in order to make some complex prepared foods more tempting and avoid people making popcorn just because it is more efficient (http://www.cantr.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... c&start=15).
Note that people here was asking for a readjustment of the game mechanics for balancing and unbalance of 3/1, 300%.
Accepted.

Some people asked for a improvement in the cotton/silk production in order to make it more efficient versus the hemp (http://www.cantr.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... sc&start=0).
Please, note thate the people here was asking for a new tool or machine, not for a change of the game mechanics, and that the difference in efficiency is here 8/1, 800%.
Not rejected, but not accepted because it introduces an interesting imbalance: people will use cotton only when there is the only possible.
It seems this is not a good reason to leave umbalanced popcorn and the cookies, but it is good for hemp and cotton strings and clothes.


My question (and this is not a rant anyways):

Is there any reason to leave some resources and products being absolutly unbalanced, while others are equalized?

[Talapus]

There are numerous things involved. First of all, there are enough healing foods that there are well established guidelines. We want a certain amount of variety, but also reason for people to utilize that variety. It is not quite as bad as it used to be, but there is still a huge number of weapons, and food in general that are almost never made because it is never practical. We try to make these option become occasionally practical, while also toning down the outrageous choices like onions. Changing the cookie project only affects that one resource, while changing the gathering rate of cotton not only affects rope, but also shifts the balance on all of the cotton furniture and clothing (weighing these impacts are difficult). Weapons, shields, buildings, food, and healing food are all considered necessary and therefore having lots of options at all levels of technology is encouraged (clothing is similiar, but because it has no game mechanic influences). Rope on the otherhand is a tech luxury. To a certain extent, realism plays some role as well. And there are many more factors besides these.

The suggestion has not been rejected because the idea is not entirely ridiculus. The cookies were changed because it was easy for the RD to see that it fit within our current guidelines, making it an easy and quick change with very little deliberation needed.

Perhaps some of the other RD would be willing their insights on this matter.

[Sicofonte]

-nods- Good answer. Thanks, Talapus

The suggestion [about a tool/machine for cotton] has not been rejected because the idea is not entirely ridiculus

Ey! wtf? xD It is not ridiculous at all, it is absolutly logical!

EDIT:
Ah... thanks, Seko
In Spanish, "not enterily ridiculous" ("no del todo ridículo") means "almost totally ridiculous".

[SekoETC]

It's not entirely ridiculous means it might be slightly ridiculous on some aspects (as in messing up the balance) but not ridiculous enough to call for instant rejection.

[Doug R.]

Silk and Cotton are a luxury product, and as such should be expensive (i.e. imbalanced) compared to hemp. Does that give hemp-based societies an advantage over cotton or silk-based ones? Only if the characters allowed it. Let me explain:

Naron has hemp, and has the infrastructure to pump out rope with little effort. There is no cotton or silk on Cantr Island (that I knew of at the time), but hemp is fairly common, to the point of being valueless beyond it's inherent gathering cost.

Now, one day, a ship from Treefeather stopped in Naron, and the Captain had a bolt of silk cloth for sale. The asking price was astronomical, but my character would have given anything for it (he wanted it to make clothes to represent the status of his position, and the position of his subordinates.) The Captain realized this, and refused to sell all of his stock in order to garner as much wealth and favor as he could by spreading it around.

My point is, that if communities that had cotton and silk put the same gathering restrictions on them as are typically placed on iron making materials, then they could achieve a massive return on their resource that could far outweigh the benefit of having an abundance of something like hemp. If they don't, yes, they will be at a serious disadvantage (Kirinn Norfields?)

Silk is rare, and cotton is less so but still very valuable. Don't underestimate character's desire to shed their hemp clothes for something that will make them look elegant and not like a rastafarian. If clothing wear were implemented, it would put even more potential earning power into the hands of silk and cotton-based communities.

Imbalance is not inherently bad, so long as it serves a purpose.

[SekoETC]

Well said, Doug.

If clothes could get worn out, maybe people would even use their cheaper rawhide and hemp clothes on the fields and save their more valued cotton and silk for special days - or if they were rich enough, try and work it so that the poor ones would do all the dirty work to avoid soiling themselves, that might even lead into hierachical systems forming. One problem is that people often do not read the clothing descriptions, so it can be missed. I would propose avatars but people seem to hate the thought as it limits imagination.

Oh and you can indeed make a profit with selling cotton cloth, although if you're not the original producer then you need some capital to start it off. The prices they're pulling on the coastal towns, they seem rather outrageous, you might be trading cotton cloth to steel gram per gram. But if you can afford to buy it then bring it over to the other island and the rich people will pay themselves sick to get some of it.

[Arlequin]

True, true. Cotton and leather are the only resources you can use to make a pair of bellows, so cotton cloth (which requires about the same manufacturing time as iron) is in the steel technology tree for islands without salt.

You can't be selling bellows forever, though.

[Sicofonte]

In the islands where I play, there are a few points with silk and some with cotton. And no hemp. Hide clothes are common (obviously), and cotton clothes are luxury.

And bowstrings are luxury.

And robes are luxury.

And a pair of bellows are luxury.

And a quarry is a big luxury.

And when the sails were implemented, sails will be luxury.


As far as I know, two English characters came from the Treefeather island... without hemp, and not interested in cotton.



So.... YES, it is a big disadvantage for those islands. Anything requiring cottons is more than 8 times expensive than anything of hemp.

If there is people complaining about fuel because it makes them lose a little percentage of their previous production or forces them to build a new machine... I think I could be shouting.



That is the reason for me supporting the suggestion of providing a tool or a machine that reduces the imbalance. Hemp woulb be still the better choice wheen possible, and cotton would continue being more expensive than hemp from afar, but cotton wouldn't be so much expensive.

Thus, cotton would be between hemp and silk in the cost scale.


PS: And places with cotton as the only valuable resource would have something else to do (the machine) apart of gathering cotton by hand.

[Doug R.]

What's wrong with one area being disadvantaged compared to another? It's a society simulator. IRL, do Beduin desert nomads have the same potential for development as a first world culture? No.

If every area in Cantr were balanced so that the same opportunities and challenges existed on every island, what would be the point? Let's encourage cultural diversity instead of trying to paint every island the same shade of vanilla.

Please

[Zanthos]

bowstring is a luxury? so what. That means that people with weapons are wealthier than everyone else. The warrior class is higher than the peasant, is there a problem with this?

[Sicofonte]

bowstring is a luxury?

Yes, comparing with places with hemp.
I mean: if it is a luxury where there is hemp, it is 8 times more a luxury where there are no hemp.

What's wrong with one area being disadvantaged compared to another?

Nothing, unless all the characters of one language group where located in good places whilst all the characters of another language group where located in bad places. It creates a bad feeling for the laters and thus it becomes harder to grow the number of players.

And you know why we have a CR, (among others) for avoiding unfair behaviours and allowing all the PLAYERS to engage whatever activity or aim that is possible in the game.

WE have to admit, this is a complex issue.

IRL, do Beduin desert nomads have the same potential for development as a first world culture? No.

I do agree. But I was not asking for the same potential. I was asking just for an expensive and very hard to get improvement that would reduce the disadvantage (after a big effort that will increase it until the machine is made), just reduce it.

About Beduins, I think it is not a good example. I mean... they don't have water and cotton, nor the will to grow it.
I was not asking for a tree that grows from the ground and give you iron beans. I was just asking for a new tool or machine in order to make something logical, that is made in RL. The first suggestion for this was one year ago. Now, one of my charries have 13 kilo of cotton, so I DON'T need any machine (and none of my character would tray to build it). But damm it, it is reasonable!


The ONLY reason to forbid that improvement is....

(drumroll.....)

"Ey, thus we have disadvantaged cultures"

Then, I would like to know about other disadvantages (apart from the islands that does not have iron... ah, sorry, bronze was balanced, so it doesn't counts).


If you want disadvantaged cultures, add the fuel requirement to the current harvesters and vehicles...

[SekoETC]

Nomad people can do a lot of stuff others cannot. You might think they're primitive but could you survive on the desert?

If you want to process cotton faster, build several cotton gins and hire more workers! If you want to gather faster, get slaves on the fields. You're lucky to be living in a location with cotton, none of my characters are. Or one was but she's a savage, who's very proud of having invented the chopping stone. If your region is primitive, maybe you could learn to accept that your character doesn't know of a better life, and learn to appriciate what you've got. At least you can charge outrageously for what ever cotton you've got.

[Doug R.]

But I was not asking for the same potential. I was asking just for an expensive and very hard to get improvement that would reduce the disadvantage (after a big effort that will increase it until the machine is made), just reduce it.

The problem with this is that once the machine is built, regardless of how much work and materials went into it, it's built. Eventually, every town will have one (whatever it is).

[wichita]

Seko, you just made my sig in this thread.

Doug, I completely agree. I miss the older players that can see the bigger picture sometimes, even when I disagree with them.


Not every location in the world should have the same tech. Not every society should be the same. We are very limited in the ways that we can mechanically stimulate the game in ways that will likely diversify culture, because in case we haven't noticed, if given their druthers the player base will essentially function the same everywhere in the game world.

It is environmental factors drive the development of Cantrian society. It isn't always as simple as making brown widgets instead of yellow widgets.

[kinvoya]

What's wrong with one area being disadvantaged compared to another? It's a society simulator.

This is true. When it comes to processing cloth, though, I don't like that it requires so much iron. IRL people would find a way to construct small, less efficient machines to, for example, do all the processing steps to make cotton fibers. I would love to see these machines be implemented. Even if it took forever to produce a small amount of cotton fibers then at least the chars in areas without access to iron would be able to make a little bit at a time for bow strings, drying racks, etc.

In any "primitive" area I guarantee the RL people would make the most of their resources.