3 or 5 attacks per day- slightly more realistic.

[Nakranoth]

Vogue... this is still in effect for one reason. We never want to see someone outright murdered conventionally by one person without a chance to retaliate... else the following situation would be completely possible:

Merctruck 01 arrives in town.
Maurauder hits town leader with crossbow.
Maurauder hits town leader with crossbow.
Maurauder kills town leader with crossbow.
Maurauder leaves Mertruck 01 entering town.
Maurauder picks up key to town storage.
Maurauder leaves town entering town storage.
Maurauder leaves town storage entering town.
Maurauder leaves town entering Mertruck 01.
Maurauder leaves Mertruck 01 entering town.
Maurauder leaves town entering town storage.
Maurauder leaves town storage entering town.
Maurauder leaves town entering Mertruck 01.
Maurauder leaves Mertruck 01 entering town.
Maurauder leaves town entering town storage.
Maurauder leaves town storage entering town.
Maurauder leaves town entering Mertruck 01.
Maurauder leaves Mertruck 01 entering town.
Maurauder says "Thanks for the loot. Peace."
Merctuck 01 leaves town on road.

And that's all before anyone wakes to do anything about it.

[N-Aldwitch]

Vogue... this is still in effect for one reason. We never want to see someone outright murdered conventionally by one person without a chance to retaliate... else the following situation would be completely possible:

Merctruck 01 arrives in town.
Maurauder hits town leader with crossbow.
Maurauder hits town leader with crossbow.
Maurauder kills town leader with crossbow.
Maurauder leaves Mertruck 01 entering town.
Maurauder picks up key to town storage.
Maurauder leaves town entering town storage.
Maurauder leaves town storage entering town.
Maurauder leaves town entering Mertruck 01.
Maurauder leaves Mertruck 01 entering town.
Maurauder leaves town entering town storage.
Maurauder leaves town storage entering town.
Maurauder leaves town entering Mertruck 01.
Maurauder leaves Mertruck 01 entering town.
Maurauder leaves town entering town storage.
Maurauder leaves town storage entering town.
Maurauder leaves town entering Mertruck 01.
Maurauder leaves Mertruck 01 entering town.
Maurauder says "Thanks for the loot. Peace."
Merctuck 01 leaves town on road.

And that's all before anyone wakes to do anything about it.

And that, my friend, is called an Assasination.

If you are worried it's not realistic, think of it this way- if no one was awake at the time, it was a 'night time' assasination, in the dead of the night a man came through to do all this evil.
If you're awake, you jump on the road and attack HIM 3 times.



Some people here are making it sound like the attacker is invincible.


Wrong. Two people can take revenge upon the attacker and have him dead, depending on whether they have decent weapons or not.

I fail to see how it is possible to strike three to five people once each, but not at all to strike a single target three to five times.

That's exactly how I'd have like to have said it. Can you see what we mean? What's the difference between attacking three people (and that's it!!) seperately, or attacking the same person three times?
It puts a cap on how many people you can attack without tiredness, then if your character decides to keep attacking, he's just going to gain tiredness like crazy.

[SekoETC]

It be possible that the attacker does it of OOC reasons. PD won't have time to interfere before the situation is already over. Dead characters cannot be brought back, even if it was later revealed that cheating was involved.

Also it's possible that the attacker is played by someone who doesn't care about all the hard work the other player has put into the character. I think you should always respect that, if you know the person hasn't spent their life sleeping away. If you must kill someone, do it for good ingame reasons.

Get a damn group if you wanna kill someone fast. It has actually worked. Well, maybe not on someone with an iron shield but an active community can kill a newspawn before they even knew what hit 'im!

[Nakranoth]

And that, my friend, is called an Assasination.

If you are worried it's not realistic, think of it this way- if no one was awake at the time, it was a 'night time' assasination, in the dead of the night a man came through to do all this evil.
If you're awake, you jump on the road and attack HIM 3 times.

Some people here are making it sound like the attacker is invincible.

No, not invincible, just enough to not be killed before they're already done irreprable damage. And in a town square, it's the basic equivilent of walking up to someone, hitting them repeatedly, with bloodcurdling screams, walking into their house, stealing all their stuff and driving off all without wakeing anyone up... if this is realism... then you may as well have flying mammals.

Wrong. Two people can take revenge upon the attacker and have him dead, depending on whether they have decent weapons or not.

Revenge is a completely diffrent thing from prevention. And remember, due to the nature of Cantr, there is no night where everyone in an area periodically sleeps for a few hours... the charries, at the moment only sleep when they're inactice for too many days to read the backlogs.

I fail to see how it is possible to strike three to five people once each, but not at all to strike a single target three to five times.

That's exactly how I'd have like to have said it. Can you see what we mean? What's the difference between attacking three people (and that's it!!) seperately, or attacking the same person three times?
It puts a cap on how many people you can attack without tiredness, then if your character decides to keep attacking, he's just going to gain tiredness like crazy.

The first diffrence is reversability. Three seperate people being wounded a total of 120% is much more readily fixed than one person killed. The second is preventability. It's easier to lock someone away if they haven't killed and run away.


Oh, and on a side note, the poison suggestion is the closest we've come yet to assassination, and it would be controled by scarce resources and prolonged manufacture times, as opposed to multi-attack murders which are limited only by the amount of time it takes to get a single weapon.

[N-Aldwitch]

It be possible that the attacker does it of OOC reasons. PD won't have time to interfere before the situation is already over. Dead characters cannot be brought back, even if it was later revealed that cheating was involved.

Again here you go using minority examples as rebuttals. Like I said in the last thread- this applies to some 3 people who'd actually do it.
IF YOU HAVE THE BEST WEAPON IN THE GAME, it does NOT mean you are going to kill the person!!
You are forgetting: The chance to miss, and, The chance that the shield blocks most/all of the attack.

Also, rather than 10 people attacking the murderer once, it would be like 30 people attacking the murderer. That is definately thief-proof.

Also it's possible that the attacker is played by someone who doesn't care about all the hard work the other player has put into the character. I think you should always respect that, if you know the person hasn't spent their life sleeping away. If you must kill someone, do it for good ingame reasons.

Cantr isn't supposed to be about spending hours and hours in-game on characters.
If they are well-known, all the more RP for the tragedy.

Seko- stop and listen to this: why should someone who has put lots of effort into their character be protected from death?
If they are so paranoid, they should hide inside.

Get a damn group if you wanna kill someone fast. It has actually worked. Well, maybe not on someone with an iron shield but an active community can kill a newspawn before they even knew what hit 'im!

..err.. that's not an assasination, which many people would like to see.

[N-Aldwitch]

No, not invincible, just enough to not be killed before they're already done irreprable damage. And in a town square, it's the basic equivilent of walking up to someone, hitting them repeatedly, with bloodcurdling screams, walking into their house, stealing all their stuff and driving off all without wakeing anyone up... if this is realism... then you may as well have flying mammals.

You make a good point but the person is asleep so they wouldn't MAKE screams! This is Cantr where there is semi-realism applied to areas that need it, and anti-realism which is applied to areas that need it too.

[new.vogue.nightmare]

I'm assuming that the leader of a town with multiple locked buildings in a region capable of producing crossbows will have an iron shield. If not, then that character really deserves to die anyway.

According to the cantr wiki, a crossbow's base damage is 42, while an iron shield's defense is 28. More often than not, a shield will block the damage; although I imagine that sometimes it fails, I have yet to fail to defend on any of my characters, suggesting a very low rate of this occuring.

With all three attacks from an average-skilled fighter being guarded against, and tiredness -not- being factored into the equation, we would come to a total of 14 damage per hit, for a total of 42 damage dealt. From what I have observed long ago (this may have changed) shields do become less effective as damage to the bearer is sustained, but attacks also become less effective as tiredness builds. At most, with a very skilled attacker, I wouldn't expect more than 60 damage before the attacker is incapacitated from fatigue.

Assuming that one of the attacks does completely bypass the shield, although I do not know the exact formula used to calculate damage, I still believe that the target would survive. In order for the situation you described to occur, you would need a very skilled attacker with an incredible amount of luck.

The chance of an individual with such devious motives coming along, having the best weapon in the game, and then having the luck to kill the leader in one fell swoop is so very low as to not pose a significant threat to game balance. In my eyes, there isn't too much of a problem with the occasional leader being assassinated. I believe that as you rise in power there should be more risks. There are too many towns where an assassination is impossible, and barring a continent-wide mobilization, you can have immortal leaders reigning until their player quits.

That being said, a few additions could be made to mitigate some of those concerns.

This may be the case already, but most of my heavily armed characters died out soon after tiredness was implemented: With heavier weapons like crossbows and claymores, it would make sense for each attack to add more tiredness than a lighter weapon, e.g. a dagger.

It could be made possible for consecutive attacks to still maintain some sort of 'cap' until the player of the target has logged in. This way, one-on-one battles could go faster than one exchange of blows per day without outpacing anyone's ability to respond. A fair compromise, I would think. No longer would sparring partners each exchange a blow and then have to sit down and engage in small talk until the next day, so that they could repeat the process. Similarly, someone couldn't rob/attack a town and then spend days trying to get the law enforcement to turn around simply because they couldn't stand his shouting. Yes, I know such endeavors aren't successful, but really. Does giving a thief the chance to shout things like LOL F*** U GUYZ IMMA GET AWAY ULL B SORRY for hours on end while the law enforcement has to run down a road waiting for the next day and it would only take -one more hit- to down him (i've seen this happen enough times to make me consider quitting) enhance the playing experience at all?

I really think the biggest obstacle to this being implemented are people with too many emotional ties to their little database entries, refusing to sit back and look at the implications objectively.


EDIT:

It be possible that the attacker does it of OOC reasons. PD won't have time to interfere before the situation is already over. Dead characters cannot be brought back, even if it was later revealed that cheating was involved.

Also it's possible that the attacker is played by someone who doesn't care about all the hard work the other player has put into the character. I think you should always respect that, if you know the person hasn't spent their life sleeping away. If you must kill someone, do it for good ingame reasons.

Get a damn group if you wanna kill someone fast. It has actually worked. Well, maybe not on someone with an iron shield but an active community can kill a newspawn before they even knew what hit 'im!

Have you also considered the fact that there are people who can get a group together OOC?

[Nakranoth]

You make a good point but the person is asleep so they wouldn't MAKE screams! This is Cantr where there is semi-realism applied to areas that need it, and anti-realism which is applied to areas that need it too.

If you only hit them once to kill them, I'd agree. But you'd typically be hitting them 2-3... the first would wake them up... Which is why I then mentioned the poison... if we want assassination, we need a possible one hit kill, be it poison, perfectly aimed strike (a new target vitals skill), or similar, not the blundering repeat a whack we currently have.

[new.vogue.nightmare]

You make a good point but the person is asleep so they wouldn't MAKE screams! This is Cantr where there is semi-realism applied to areas that need it, and anti-realism which is applied to areas that need it too.

If you only hit them once to kill them, I'd agree. But you'd typically be hitting them 2-3... the first would wake them up... Which is why I then mentioned the poison... if we want assassination, we need a possible one hit kill, be it poison, perfectly aimed strike (a new target vitals skill), or similar, not the blundering repeat a whack we currently have.

The only reason you'd have to hit them multiple times is because you can't go directly for vital organs in Cantr. One-hit kills are pretty much impossible, barring some crazy fluke. This would be, in a sense, a way to make up for that using the current mechanics. If your suggestion is implemented, well

1. Your argument against stopping one man assassinations is now moot.
2. It's just as easy to implement a cap system based on logins as per my earlier post.

[Nakranoth]

You're suggesting a change to the combat system. The poison concept doesn't need that change, and it only makes a tiny percentage of cantrians any more dangerous. The vitals concept, I have no idea weather or not it's in any way a good idea. I don't think the one man assassin is bad, however it should be as far away from easy as is physically possible. The mulit-attack system makes it readily accessable to anyone with a crossbow, and expert crossbow men are anything but rare. I personally have one and I've been playing for maybe a year so far.

[SekoETC]

You speak wisely, Chris. If a character would be granted a chance to continue fighting straight away if the other character has responded to their primary attack, that would bring in some balance and make the game progress faster. The one hit per day thing would allow them to hit again the next day even if the person hasn't struck back, thus stopping people from ignoring attacks to remain protected.

If heavy weapons caused more tiredness than light ones, that would give a reason for making the light ones and improve game diversity. Also it's known that crossbows are notably slow to load, so there could be a short waiting period for reloading. Even though the person they had attack could not hit them more than once, as they haven't responded in the middle, there is a chance of someone else waking up and joining in.

It's true that people can cheat in groups as well, unfortunately... Sometimes I wish you were required to write a legit ingame reason for PD before being allowed to attack. But that would require active people to review these requests and enough professionalism not to warn the person if it happens to be a player liked by one of the moderators.

[Kreed]

Yes interesting ideas there. Scale the violence rather than playing to the lowest common denominator. I could like that.

[Black Canyon]

Cantr isn't supposed to be about spending hours and hours in-game on characters.

Says who? Do you think it is instead about going through one hundred plus characters, one after another, contributing nothing to the larger story of cantr history? Which do you think adds more richness to the game experience..... a John Locke or a Nicki Blackrock...versus N-Alwitch's character number forty-eight who just got killed for punching the town leader and stealing a stone hammer off the ground?

I really think the biggest obstacle to this being implemented are people with too many emotional ties to their little database entries, refusing to sit back and look at the implications objectively.

Perhaps you could enlighten us on the objective implications? I fail to see how a one day/one person kill really adds in a positive way to the cantr experience. I tend to think that the value placed on individual characters' lives by their players is actually what makes this game so intense and exciting at times. If I want to spread death and destruction through a detached and unemotional gaming experience, I play Civilization.

[El_Skwidd]

The more I read this discussion, the more I like this suggestion.

I like what Nakranoth said about heavier weapons causing more tiredness than lighter weapons. That would give better variety to the weapons system.

I also think that for this suggestion to work at all, tiredness really needs to be a more drastic factor than it already is. Consider 3 attacks a fury, leaving the character at at least 50% fatigue.

This would drop the number of people required to bring down the target in one day from an unrealistic five or six (on average) to a more manageable two or three. And... Cantr may speed up a tad.

[Nakranoth]

So if Person A swings at person B, then B swings back, A could reswing at B? And with the cross bow, how do you let the other person get in extra attacks without it being simply because of going to "sleep"?