A MARKET!!!

[Dreamhand]

Okay, I’d like to join in on this thread… I think the idea of an “automatic” market is intriguing and has enormous potential to expand the economic aspect of the game by making trades easier (i.e. two players don’t need to be awake at the same time to have a transaction).

First, a role-play consideration…

One of the omnipresent components of the game is the “give-and-take” of dialogue and actions that occur between characters. Someone says something (“Nice day, isn’t it?”) and 3 hours later someone logs in, sees the comment and responds (“Yes, it certainly is”). That’s just the way it happens. As another example, dragging someone can be initiated by one character but can be joined hours later by other characters… THEN the drag is completed.

That’s the cycle of exchange - verbal and physical - in Cantr. The notion of an “automatic” transaction with preset parameters (defined by the merchant) being conducted when both parties are NOT logged on seems to be a significant shift from the norm of the game. I’m not saying yea or nay… just observing that it is completely different from every other interaction in the game.

I’d like to propose the addition of a game mechanic called “Transaction”.

TRANSACTION
The idea is similar (but not as cool as) the “vending-machine” concept presented in earlier posts. Two players, through normal Cantr dialogue, come to an agreement on a transaction (500g meat jerky for a longbow or some such). One of the players clicks the “Transaction Button” and a screen loads allowing them to define WHO they’re transacting with, what and how much they are GIVING, and what and how much they are to be RECEIVING. They click the “go” button and a message appears in the dialogue screen:

1727-0.27: Merchant Devereux (a man in his thirties) has requested a transaction with you.

On THAT character’s transaction screen will be a list detailing this and all other pending transaction offers sent and received. For any received offers there will be an “accept” and “decline” button. Declining would send to appropriate message to the offerer, Accepting would complete the transaction provided all goods detailed are present on both sides. If something has changed since the offer was made and all the detailed items aren’t available, a warning message would come up saying something like “You (or Merchant Devereux) don’t have all the required items for this transaction.” (also on this screen would be the option to cancel any transactions the player has offered).

I realize this isn’t quite the “automatic” exchange detailed in previous posts, but it seems to be more in keeping with the spirit of the game AND will still expedite mercantile activity in the game.

[Nakranoth]

I personally don't want to see this sort of automation at all... add a safety option and you reduce roleplay. Less roleplay means less interaction, and thus less fun.

[Rusalka]

That is how it works in mmorpg's like diablo, mu or lineage.

[psymann]

Halfway through reading Deamhand's post, I thought of a sort of "swap offer" which is then almost exactly what he went on to describe. (He/she, sorry, don't know who people are )

This is what I am used to to an extent in War of Empires. There, we have clans who sometimes want to make alliances. The deal is that the one clan offers an alliance to the other, and the other logs in, any time after that, and either accepts or rejects the alliance offer. Only when it is accepted is the alliance formed. I think this would be good in Cantr with trading.

As far as I can see, there's no reason for people to need a vending-machine style of machine to aid trade. Trade is perfectly easy to achieve already in the following way:

1725.1.0 psymann: Would you like some wood? I need stone.
1725.5.0 psydkik: Would love some wood, and I have some stone for you. I'll swap you 1000 of each.
1726.2.0 psymann: Ok, here's the wood *passes wood to psydkik*
1726.7.0 psydkik: Thanks, here's the stone *passes stone to psymann*

Now the only circumstance I can see that not working is if both characters have too much in their inventories and can't take an extra 1000g. In this case, one would have to drop 1000 wood, the other could pass the 1000 stone and then take the 1000 wood from the ground. IN the example below that would need to happen, there is a five-hour gap for someone to steal the stuff.


1725.1.0 psymann: Would you like some wood? I need stone.
1725.5.0 psydkik: Would love some wood, and I have some stone for you. I'll swap you 1000 of each.
1726.2.0 psymann: Ok, here's the wood *drops wood on ground*
[1726.2 till 1726.7 : gap for thief to come along]
1726.7.0 psydkik: Thanks, here's the stone *passes stone to psymann and picks up the wood from the ground*

Therefore, the action needed is an instantaneous "swap", where the wood and stone are exchanged instantly, without either having to drop things on the ground in between. So it would work something like this (the option to accept/reject offer would appear as an item on the activity page):

1725.1.0 psymann: Would you like some wood? I need stone.
1725.5.0 psydkik: Would love some wood, and I have some stone for you. I'll swap you 1000 of each. *sends swap offer to psymann: 1000 wood for 1000 stone*
1726.2.0 psymann: Ok, here's the wood *accepts swap offer, and goods are exchanged*
1726.7.0 psydkik: Thanks.

The only difference here is that there is no dropping of things on the ground, which allows people with full inventories to trade more easily. Obviously if one or other character doesn't have enough in their inventory, the swap effort would fail.

I see no reason to make the swapping quicker, because the rest of the game moves at a gentle pace. It seems strange if this should be sped up, when, as pointed out above, people can take 3 hours just to say hello to each other.


That said, I do like the idea of a transparent wooden cart (or similar) where you can make your inventory open to others. This is perfectly realistic, and I think would allow people to trade more easily without having to write notes saying "I have xxx to trade" and updating it every time someone trades something.

psymann

[Wilmer Bordonado]

I personally don't want to see this sort of automation at all... add a safety option and you reduce roleplay. Less roleplay means less interaction, and thus less fun.

I consider this type of automation does not reduce RolePlaying at all. It would make the opposite effect. Role Playing would be increased.
I'll tell you why:

a) It would accelerate transactions. Is RP actually wait two days to change coal into wood?
b) It would promote the flow of information. Certain town has a great offer for some product, published at the 'market' (actually this can be made by writing a note, but it's no secure you'll find your seller when you return with something to sell) Then characters could make a real PLAN and a serious STRATEGY to get goods.
c) It would certainly benefit the ones who are more active into game.
d) It would promote the creation of something which is forgotten in Cantr's universe: QUESTS. Great value items could be set on sale, and adventurous and intrepid characters could be seduce to make large or dangeorus journeys to get the desire resources or items.
e) it would benefit citie's communication a lot, since postmen could announce a secure offer and demand in different places.
f) In the end, RP shouldn't be affected at all, since regular trade as it's known nowadays would be continued and not banned. So why not allowing cities to have their market if they want to? Now, if you're in the middle of a mountain, there's no machine for trading and the 'giving' system rules.
g) 'Giving' transactions could also be made in a place where there is a market.
h) It adds and nothing is quit.

I just don't get why you say RP could be reduce by this implementation.

I found very interesting ideas, but I still consider the machine as the better and easier way to develop commerce into Cantr universe. It's thought for organized sites, cities which would be glad to modify their architecture to have a nice Market Place.

Wilmer B.

[Nakranoth]

I say it reduces RP because if you have an automation, you no longer need to negotiate with people to get what you want. You can already have everything you've mentioned without automating a thing. You can very easily post prices fro things you have, and then come a customer, you can trade for things you never expected to see.

[Sicofonte]

Oh, yeah, vending machines

I don't like it (still)

But the stall idea looks nice. Even more the hawking (travelling vending).

Well, I think your missing the point of it, somewhere.
I'm not talking about travellers who want to sell their products, but people in an organization...

You were talking about vending-machine, I was talking about travellers, on my own.

Travellers could also have a benefit from this, since they could came to a town, see what's needed to buy certain item, then go search for that, come back and buy it.

Travellers can go to a place and ask for needed resources without any automatic vending machine (from now AVM).

I still don't find any critics to the idea, beyond of the prog possibilities of working it out.

We give you, but you don't want to see them (the critics).

I consider some kind of 'legal' market would benefit the creation of small cities, since there would be a constant offering and demanding products.

Some cities have a constant flow of products without any AVM. Please, stop bringing out odd reasons. The only reason supporting the idea of a AVM is to accelerate trading.

This also would give a great push to currency, if coins are allowed as items to be put into the container. Just in few words, a secure economy is needed to let the societies grow up.

Machine that accepts coins and automatically give out some resource... one question, please... has it a led display and a keyboard to introduce the code of the desired product?... or it uses a tactile screen?

ps. Please Sico, don't make it too 'character dependant'.

Please, Wilmer, open your eyes, why my chars wouldn't want to have an AVM?. You are the biased guy here.

[Wilmer Bordonado]

I say it reduces RP because if you have an automation, you no longer need to negotiate with people to get what you want. You can already have everything you've mentioned without automating a thing. You can very easily post prices fro things you have, and then come a customer, you can trade for things you never expected to see.

But... No. Problem here is people got sleepy. Problem here is that it's a worldwide game, where some players play Cantr while others are going to bed. This kind of things makes current transactions to depend on external game situations. Vending machines -why automated if they do not progress on anything?- could be a great help to make the game faster.
I know there are a lot of people who likes to stop Cantr time at all -not talking about you, Nakranoth, of course- but I'm with the ones who think things should be easier and so, faster. That's why I support vending machines. It adds a lot & nothing quits.

Wilmer B.

ps. Sicofonte, please grow up guy.

[Pie]

The origional suggestion was just a way to put all your things in a building, and be in that building, have it be inexpencive, and be able to see everyone in it and all the things in it.

[Wilmer Bordonado]

The origional suggestion was just a way to put all your things in a building, and be in that building, have it be inexpencive, and be able to see everyone in it and all the things in it.

Thanks for remind us all the original idea, but you know this is a discussion forum where ideas are shared and analyzed by the whole community, and well... things can change.

Wilmer B.

[wichita]

I preferred pie's original suggestion to the outpouring of words that the thread has become.

[Wilmer Bordonado]

Nice opinion. But I still do support every little letter written by myself in this topic, just because I do not consider them as an "outpouring of words" but as minimal contribution to make this game better.

Wilmer B.

[Chris Johnson]

The origional suggestion was just a way to put all your things in a building, and be in that building, have it be inexpencive, and be able to see everyone in it and all the things in it.

Thanks for remind us all the original idea, but you know this is a discussion forum where ideas are shared and analyzed by the whole community, and well... things can change.

Wilmer B.

Wilmer, your own suggestion is just a rehash of the vending machine suggestion and doesn't have much to do with this thread when there are other threads covering exactly what you are saying. - Please add your comments to that thread (if you have anything additional which hasn't already been mentioned in that thread). Discussion in this thread should be about Pie's original suggestion and adaptations of the original idea.

[Nakranoth]

Honestly, I like the idea of being able to present your wares. It reduces grundge work of paperkeeping. But the second you try to automate it, you've eliminated haggling and thus reduced player interactions, even if those interactions do take a few days, that's how Cantr's designed. So long as it remains "market stalls" and "wares carts" that people without the key can look into, but not take/put things, I'm all for it.

[Wilmer Bordonado]

Wilmer, your own suggestion is just a rehash of the vending machine suggestion and doesn't have much to do with this thread when there are other threads covering exactly what you are saying. - Please add your comments to that thread (if you have anything additional which hasn't already been mentioned in that thread). Discussion in this thread should be about Pie's original suggestion and adaptations of the original idea.

I don't wanna start a discussion about whether the opinion of a market place is rightly set in this topic, I just only had and idea which I wanted to share with the community, and it was mainly about a market place, so I search for the word "market" in the search engine and I found this topic, so I wrote the idea here. I hadn't believed it could be off-topic, since it's related to the market and the way to make transaction IG. But if you all consider my words are off-topic, I won't discuss about it anymore here.
The matter is that I consider ideas in a progress, in a certain way, one-leads-to-another... if not, threads about suggestions would only be a YES or NO list or replies.

About the pie's original post, windows could show things which are inside a building, but perhaps it should be written in another post...

Wilmer B.