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Pie
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Postby Pie » Sat Nov 25, 2006 5:17 pm

Ok, I seriously have to comment.

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Postby Bowser » Sat Nov 25, 2006 5:28 pm

Here is a link to a site teaching Tolerance. It has some info and links that give you info from the other side of the story.

http://www.tolerance.org/teach/activiti ... n-11022006
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Postby saztronic » Sat Nov 25, 2006 5:42 pm

Elros wrote: I started working in construction when I was 13 for relatives and stuff who were in the industry. I used to make $10 - $20 a day, but the older I got and the harder I worked I started making more. Now I am only 17, and I get $20 an hour tax free.


Paging the IRS, hello, IRS.

Let's hear it for nepotism and tax fraud! U.! S.! A.! U.! S.! A.!
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Pie
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Postby Pie » Sat Nov 25, 2006 5:45 pm

some people just cant be civil.
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Postby Schme » Sat Nov 25, 2006 5:55 pm

Elros wrote: Schme, when it comes down to it, you just do not have it all together on the subject. You can keep giving scenario after snenario about what you think it is like, but when it comes down to it, it is not what you make it out to be.


I'm afraid not, buddy. I don't think anything. I know this, man. Seen this my entire life. That's how it is, man. It's you who's not got it together, man.

Elros wrote:You asked why do poor people stay poor? Well first of all you have to ask, why are they poor in the first place? Is it because the spent all of their money gambling? Is it because they don't want to get out and work? Is it because someone stole everything they had? Is it because they are handicapped(not likely, because handicapped are decently taken care of with disability)?


People are poor because they are born poor. People are rich because they are born rich. It's the same people. You don't jump class.

Sure, some people become rich after having been born poor. Why do you think those are such big stories? Because it never happens. That's why it's big, man. And I'm not trying to use that as proof, here. It's the truth. If you're born poor, you're going to stay poor, and you're children will be poor. That's how it works. Some middle class people will become poor because of gambling, drugs, alchoholism. But those are primarily problems of the very poor. Those problems can make you poor, but they also arise from poverty.

The way it is is that people who are poor stay poor, and people who are rich stay rich. Nobody decides to be born either way, and your birth will pretty much set out the path for you. Rich people can become poor if they work at it, but it's not easy to become rich. Everybody wants to rich man's money, but nobody wants the poor man's poverty.

Elros wrote:If they are poor because they do not want to work, then they will obviously stay poor unless they get out and work, and when they have kids who are born poor as you say, they will do one of two things, they will either despise the laziness of their parent and the situation of poverty they are in and will get out and work their butt off so that their children don't have to go through the same childhood that they had, or they will follow in their parent's footsteps and be lazy and stay poor.


People are not poor because they're lazy, man. That's not how it works. They're poor because the best jobs they can get are shit by default, because the system isn't interested in helping them along in school to higher things. They've got other people to do that. They can either work their ass off at a shit job (which most people do) and not get richer, or sit around, live off welfare, and be even poorer then if they had a shit job which allowed them to be poor but with basic cable. If it were as simple as working hard, damn near nobody in America would be poor. But it isn't. There's only so many McDonalds jobs and only so many McDonalds shifts. The Home Depot doesn't need to employ one thousand people. It needs several dozen, and not at the same time, and not full time.

There's only so many shifts. You can't work hard if you can't work at all. And not can't work because you have no fingers. Can't work because nobody needs you. That's why people will get jobs, go back to welfare, get jobs, go back to welfare. Say I'm on welfare, three hundred a week, say, and I can get an hour shift at 7/11 every day. I could take the job, make a bit of money, but then my check goes too two hundred. I'm losing money. So fuck that. I've got to survive.

That's how it is. If there's twelve hours of work a day and five guys want it, they aren't all going to get twelve hours. One 7/11 serves about a thousand people with twenty employees at different times and days. Nobody gets full time, and if they do, they're damn lucky, and the other guys get even less work. For everyone who succeeds, others fail.

And if I can make some money cooking, then fine.

Elros wrote:Same goes for all of the above, if their parent or parents gambled and lost all their maoney, than they will either despise it and be the opposite, or end up getting stuck in the same situation.


No, their going to despise their parents alright, but their not going to go anywhere. What are they going to do? Take the same crappy jobs that didn't get their parents anywhere? Go to the crappy school that won't prepare them to pass the SATs and will generally waste their time?

And you keep talking about people losing all their money. Nobody lost any money. There wasn't any money in the first place.

Elros wrote:Then you have the people who were stolen from and lost everything. For instance, my Grandpa owned a large buisness which he spent years building up and he was a fairly rich person. He was a millionare and this was back in the 80's. However a man came along and ended up stealing his company through fraud and a bunch of other illegal activities, and my Grandpa and Granma lost everything. Their house, car, everything. However, since my Grandpa was a man that was willing to work hard despite the situation, he started over again working small jobs here and there. Even though he is not "rich" today, he and my grandma have a nice house, two cars, and all the food that they need.


Good for them. It doesn't happen often. Most people never even own a bussiness to begin with. To work your way up twice is miraculous.

Elros wrote:It is this simple, if you do get out and work hard, and want to succeed, and are willing to work for it, then you can. The problem is many people say, "I want to be rich and successful", but then they drop out of highschool, or decide that working in a low paying job for 2 years to get into college is too much work. So the spend the rest of their life living with hardly nothing and thus becoming part of the "poor" group that you keep talking about.


Like I say, people are born poor. You can't just work hard and everything falls into place. Hard work counts for a lot, but if you've nothing to work towards, no gurrantee of any success, you're done. Work hard at your crumbling, slumy ass school? Sure, do it. But there's quite few distractions. Such as working with books from the time when your grandfather had his first bussiness against SATs geared towards people in properly funded schools. Such as drugs. Violence. People don't just go towards the top of their own accord. If you were dropped off in an Indian slum, with a few hundred on you, you'd probably end up poor, too. What would you do? Work harder then all the Indians? Do you think they're not working?

Tell you what, it's the same in America. You're born into poverty, with no direction.

You've got to remember that it's hardly everyone who's selling drugs. No, not at all. Most people are either working their nothing job and wishing they had a stable, full time nothing job.

It's not as simple as working hard. I would love to live in a world where hard work was rewarded. I'd love it. Then you'd know for certain that everyone who got up there deserved it, and everyone who didn't was just lazy. Ultimate justice. But that's not how it is. It's a far off dream.

Elros wrote:Last of all I just want to say that I do not think that Nosajimiki was being rascist or "White Supemeist" as you said at all. He was just stating some simple facts on the topic of what we were discussing. I happen to agree with everything he was sayiong also(except for the part about Patriotism which you nailed down afterward).


As I said? I didn't write it, man. That's just the name of the song.

My point was, man, that people often talk of how easy minorities have it, when in fact they've got it just as bad or worse then poor white people in America.

Poor white Americans get frusterated with programs to help minorities, middle class white Americans get frusterated that minorities keep complaining about things after "All that's been done for them." It's a joke. Again, same thing in Canada.
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Postby Phalynx » Sun Nov 26, 2006 4:29 pm

Schme. trying to explain this to Elros is like trying to explain swimming to the boy-in-the-bubble.
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Postby Schme » Sun Nov 26, 2006 6:06 pm

No, no, I think he is get what I mean. We're just talking, you know? Arguing is fun, anyways, whether you're right or wrong.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frank_Chu

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Postby Pie » Sun Nov 26, 2006 10:20 pm

Phalynx wrote:Schme. trying to explain this to Elros is like trying to explain swimming to the boy-in-the-bubble.


That was not only offencive but verry insulting.

good thing it wasn't aimed at me.

Now, lets do some easy math. Lets say, that someone moves to america, using the proper visas and the like, becoming an american citizen. This person would like to get a job. He could go anywere and easaly get a secretary job, earning 8 dollars an hour, assuming he graduated frome high school.

Now, if he were to work 9 hours a day, than each month (wich i rounded to every 28 days) he would make a little bit more than 1516 (i did the math :D YAY MATH) Now, take into effect that he actually has to live some place, lets look at the options. he can get a crappy mobile home for 400 a month, or he can mortgadge (or something of the sort, i don't know the realastate lingo) a house for 500 a month (in my town, anyway) a nice house, too. 80 thousand, 3 bedrooms, 2 bath, living room, patio, a lot of nice features. and take into effect that it costs, i don't know, 100 dollars a month to feed just one adult male( correct me if i'm rong) and electicity, lets assume it's 250, and internet is 50, cabel is 50, heating and A.C. is 100, thats...

500, plus 100, plus 250, plus 50, plus 50, plus another 100... 1050, leaving him a healthy 466 dollars every month to spend on, say, getting the rest of his family over here.

I love math now. :mrgreen: And here it is. the math i used.

8 (the dollar per hour pay) times 9 (hours a day) =72

72 times 28 (days in a month) = 2016, - 500(the 22% (i rounded) income tax) 1516.

IN YALLS FACE!!! Assuming that a person only got a job at mc donalds, thats 6 dollars an hour, 56 dollars per day, times 28... thats 1568, minus the 22% tax (uuuuhhh...) 1200? approx. giving 150 dollars extra every month.

_____________________________

No, the only reason for someone to be poor, is for them to be addicted to drugs, or being lazy, or they are trying to get through colledge. So SHUT UP!! AMERICA ROCKS!!!

now I'm bored.
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Postby Zanthos » Sun Nov 26, 2006 10:33 pm

You are all forgetting a major thing called tax breaks.

I did an economics project which showed how a lower class single mother of 2 can succesfully get by and even have some money left over. Yes, its possible, but it all depends on the area you live. Even the worst city is Massachusetts (which is next to one of the richest suburbs oO) is better than many elsewhere in the USA.
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Postby sanchez » Sun Nov 26, 2006 10:37 pm

What about taxes? And, where I live, the average 2br apt. rents for 1500US/mo.. Seriously. One person could not eat on those wages.
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Postby Zanthos » Sun Nov 26, 2006 10:58 pm

With the weirdness of american tax code, it is possible to get enough tax refunds to make your taxes get almost completly returned.
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Postby sanchez » Sun Nov 26, 2006 11:09 pm

:P Taxes are patriotic. And those kinds of loopholes are really only available for the wealthy.
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Postby Schme » Sun Nov 26, 2006 11:53 pm

Pie, man, who needs a secretary to work nine fucking hours a day? Secretaries aren’t shift workers, man. They work however much or however little they need to until they’re work is done, and then they get paid the same every week. But let’s say you’ve got a shift job where you get eight an hour.

Yeah, like you said, you can support yourself OK, as long as, like you say, you can get your nine hours a day, every day. Extremely unlikely. But say you can get it like you said. You can support yourself with all that nice shit, yeah, hurrah, like you said. If you’re celibate, that is. If you’ve got no children or dependants, and continue to live in your small house. Perfect.

But nine hours a day, twenty eight days a month. That gives you three days off a month. No weekends. Now, let’s be generous and give the guy weekends off. That’s still a pretty much a fifty hour work week. The suggested humanitarian work week is fourty hours. And bear in mind, he takes weekends off, he gets less money and can’t maintain his standard of living. I don’t really want to get into the math here, but if you like, go ahead. Your whole load falls apart.

The chances of him getting that many shifts are next to none. I see you’ve conveniently left that out of your equation. Remember, some people can’t even GET jobs, simply because there aren’t that many around. This guy’d have to be pretty lucky in order to get that much work.

And so, like your calculations show, they poor mofo would have to work sixty hour weeks, three days off a month, and never have any children just to remain middle class. How long do you think he could keep it up? And isn’t it reasonable to want children? For example, you say, him getting his family over. Let’s just assume he’s got no kids back home, to give the poor guy a break, so he’s not sending money to Uzbekistan. You think he’s going to be able to get his fucking brothers and sisters over here, some nobody guy barely scrapping middle class? I don’t think so. He may have a bit of money, but not enough money to circumvent yankee law.

And again, you’re assuming he’s got some education. Most people coming to America don’t. They’ve got no high school, college or anything, like a shit load of born and raised Americans, like I say. Even if they do, if they come from a place where they’re degree will be recognized in the states, they’re probably well off in the first place and won’t immigrate, or will bring their money with them. For example, a professor in Haiti is a high school dropout in America. Now, Canada does this too, bear in mind. It’s one of our biggest problems, in fact. We’re no better then America in that respect, believe me. Worse, even.

That’s just it, Pie. They haven’t got high school, they haven’t got enough work. This guy who you’ve made up, he has a wife and two kids, say, your whole thing falls to shit, and if you ask me, it’s not unreasonable to have children. He’s got two children, he’s back down to lower class, and he’s STILL got no weekends. And by the way, people without high school degrees don’t really get mortgages from the bank, as the bank doesn’t lend money to poor people.

And your McDonalds guy, he’s even more fucked.

And all this is if they can get as much work as they want. What happens if you can only get five hours for 22 days a month (Which would be pretty fucking lucky, that’s what I based my little math game on, five and twenty two.). Then what? Let alone if there’s no jobs to be had.

Pie, you don’t know what your talking about. Look around. My God. You say everyone who is poor in America is lazy or on drugs. That’s God damn bullshit. You don’t know a thing about America. Now, I know they don’t teach you this in school, man, and it’s hard to know about unless you’ve seen it yourself. But get real, man. Face reality.

You should really learn a bit more about your own rocking country. I never said America sucks, either. In fact, here’s living proof America rocks from LL Cool J himself.

http://thebox.free.fr/rockthebellsov.mp3

But Christ man, look around. I say again, it’s not as simple as people would like. It would be wonderful if the world gave everyone a chance, and hard work was rewarded and the only possible way anybody could be poor. It’d be wonderful. But that’s not how it is. Some people have a fair shot, and others, a lot of others, simply don’t. That’s what up.

As for you guys talking about your having calculated tax breaks, all that, whatever, go ahead and try it. I think you may have a bit of difficulty.

And I’m not saying it’s impossible to raise kids off welfare without education. Tons of people do it. But you can’t raise them rich. And while your at work, they’re hanging around with the real winners, the pushers, or they’re having some fun getting smashed and God forbid smoking rock.

And you say you’re full Christian, Pie. What’s the point of charity, then, if everyone in a bad way deserves it? Tell me that.

You guys may want to look these guys up. They think a lot like you do, Pie.

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Elros
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Postby Elros » Mon Nov 27, 2006 2:34 am

Well Schme, let me just say you can wage a way better argument than I can. *smiles* I am sure you are probably right about alot of places in the USA, and maybe some places are as bad as you make them out to be. The only reason I argue against what you are saying is because I was born in the USA lived here all my life, and I have never seen it as bad as you make it out to be. I have always seen my hard work rewarded, and the same with everyone I know. Yes I have seen things happen to people I know where they lose almost everything they have, and even go as low in income as welfare and food stamps, however they keep working and trying and doing their best, and they always come back out of it.

So all I am saying is that I do not disagree with your scenarios for maybe some parts of the USA, but its not like that everywhere in the USA. There "are" many places that you "can" live the "American Dream".

I myself am going to college next year, and with God's help and a whole lot of work on my part, I will get through college, get a good job, and be able to take good care of a family. It has always come through for me in the past, and I believe it will continue to work out in the future. Yes, I will have hard times ahead, but I belive with my whole heart that if I stick with it, work hard, and don't throw in the towel, then I will come through in the end.

I guess I am pretty much done on this thread, it was really nice talking with you about all of it. *smiles* It always gets me studying and learning more when I have to argue a point with someone, so i like a good healthy argument sometimes. *winks at Phalnyx* That is as long as the people do not get offended or upset. Don't worry, no offence taken Phalynx. :)
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Postby Zanthos » Mon Nov 27, 2006 2:39 am

Strange as it may seem I have seen immigrants live the american dream. One of my best friends parents came from the Dominican Republic when they were like 17 and 18, so poor that the woman was stealing jams from diners. They moved into the worst city in Massachusetts, but managed to make a living. Now, they own 3 shoe stores and are building a 4th, and one kid is going to college in Miami while the other one is being sent to private highschool. They just bought another house and are letting their grandma and cousins from the Dominican Republic live in their one near me.

So rare as it is, success is possible. They were just very lucky.
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