what will you eat.

[Zanthos]

Pie, Japan is not the second best, and sweden is not the best...

First of all, Japan has had its largest recession in history over the last decade (and might still be in it, i dont know). Last I saw, the highest GDP per net capita was in Ireland.

On average, the US is pretty middle of the road in terms of income across the board, however the US does have many many many rich people. There is opportunity if you know where to look for it. However stores like walmart use illegal immigrants as workers and pay them a fraction of minimum wage because they'll work for it. In fact I even heard of a walmart which housed its workers in the back overnight because they were all illegals.

So yes, the USA is a great country, but it also has great problems.

[Schme]

Pie, man, America is a very rich country, but not very many Americans are all that rich. Most of America’s money is up to with the elite class. I’m not a Marxist or anything. That’s just how it is.

An immigrant can just walk up and get a job? Yeah, a job, at a shitty old McDonalds in the middle of a slum. That’s not much of a job, man. And not just immigrants. Pretty much everyone poor in America is going to stay poor.

Canada is moving more and more in that direction. And ask any Canadian, they hate it. I’m not saying in every other country people get to shoot to the upper echelon of society. But America is no better in that respect, and what people think is awful is that, unlike all the “Backward dictatorships” you talk about (which by the way, are people countries, so, c’mon, man.), unlike them, America actually HAS enough money so that people needn’t be that poor. And yet they are, because all, ALL, the money is at the top.

You saying all these civil wars, genocides, et cetra, so god awful, yeah, they are. Who funded Mr.Mobuto? President Pinochet? Mohammed Omar? The Contras? The guy in Panama? Where did Saddam get his ever so handy mustard gas?

No, U.S.A. not responsible for every problem outside the U.S., but Americans are responsible for quite a few of them, or the causes of them. Not most Americans, but a few Americans, the same ones who live safely away at the top and keep all of the money. They control America, and they make damn sure America doesn’t help anyone, and they sure as hell don’t help any Americans besides each other. They aren’t your friends, Pie.

Eight thousand people shot to death a year. There’s a problem, there man. Land of the free. Not that free if people are get fucking shot all the time. It’s insane.



But as for the genocide of the Native Americans, yeah, it happened and it’s happening now. But who butchered the Algonquin people up in Canada? Who made it so that there’s not a single Algonquin band left in the whole entire world? The British. So let’s be careful, now.

Guy Fawkes day. Celebrating the murder of a group who tried to stand up to tyranny? Or just a fucking holiday? A holiday if you ask me. They’re just trying to eat some god damn turkey. If you don’t want any, good for you.


On that note, the real thanksgiving happened months ago. Get with the times, America!

[Elros]

Ok, first of all abput this whole idea of thanksgiving being a celebration of the indians being butchered or whatever, appearantly alot of you didn't do to good in your American History. There were many indians that attended the first Thanksgiving feast that the Pilgrims had. It was a day that they were giving thanks to God(yes, americans did believe in God at one time) for keeping them alive through their first winter in the harsh wilderness, and for their plentiful harvest that they have just gathered with the help of the indians who taught them how to grow their most useful crops here in america. So, yes americans did kill most of the indians, and yes they were very wrong, but that is all a different story. That is not what thanksgiving is about at all.

Oh, and yes maybe there are 8000 people killed a year by guns in america, but look at how big america is compared to most other countries. Why don't you give some per capita figueres here.

[Schme]

I never said thanksgiving was about murdering Natives. Other people said that. Who are you talking to? It's not at all clear.

Murder rates per 100,000 people in 1990-2000.

Paris, 4

Washington, 60

That's the rough thing as I remember her.

8,000 people is a lot, man. 8000 a year. That's like five murders a day. Last I checked, America hasn't had a civil war for a while.

[Elros]

Ok, sorry if I was a little unclear about who my post was aimed at. i didn't direct it at anybody, but rather at a few ideas that several people had mentioned. The second paragraph was commenting on the post you had made about the 8000 murders a year though.

Secondly, when I said per capita, I meant nationally, not taking one city. here is some statistics:

TOP TEN COUNTRIES FOR HOMICIDE

PER 100,000
1. Colombia----------63
2. South Africa-------51
3. Jamaica------------32
4. Venezuela---------32
5. Russia -------------19
6. Mexico-------------13
7. Lithuania-----------10
8. Estonia-------------10
9. Latvia--------------10
10. Belarus-----------9

TEN WORST COUNTRIES FOR MURDER

PER 100,000
1. Columbia------------84.4
2. El Salvador----------50.2
3. Puerto Rico----------41.8
4. Brazil-----------------32.5
5. Albania---------------28.2
6. Venezuela------------25.0
7. Russian Federation--18.0
8. Ecuador--------------15.9
9. Mexico----------------15.3
10. Panama-------------14.4

Um.... I seem to see the USA listed nowhere on any of those lists.

[Schme]

The U.S. is the richest country in the world. Why are conditions about that people making people kill each other in the richest country in the world? Not all of those thousands are bar fights and men killing their wives, believe me.

By the way, Puerto Rico is in the U.S. Commonwealth, and U.S.A. been screwing around in Panama for a long time.

It's not top ten. But it's first in the world money. The equation is supposedly, more democracy, equality and prosperity, less poverty and misery. Something's off.


U.S.A. 0.042000 murder per 1,000 people

Indonesia 0.0092000 murder per 1,000 people


Something's off, man. Got to face that. Forget other countries. Eight thousand is a hell of a lot.

[Elros]

*laughs* So, you are trying a different aproach now? First of all, the USA does not have anything to do with controling Puerto Rico. They offered Puerto Rico the chance to become one of the states, and Puerto Rico wanted to keep their own government, laws, and constitutions ect... So the death rate in Puerto Rico has no connections to the USA. Just because when conduct alot of trade with them means nothing. We conduct trade with countries all over the world.

You ask me why people still kill people in America even though it is a very prosperous country? Well there is no good reason why somebody should commit murder, but more riches does mean more stuff to steal for criminals, so it makes since why there is more murder. Riches attract criminals. However the Murder rate compared to other countries is nothing like you make it out to be.

Actually when it comes to total criminal offences, the USA has less than half as many per capita as England, Germany, Norway, and Denmark, and less than a third of what Sweden and Finland have. These statistics were taken in year 2003 by Interpol, and are the latest facts in this area that are available.

So, there is no point in arguing you criminal statistics because as I have shown more than once, the criminal rate in America as nothing like what you portray it to be.

[Missy]

Calling HF Scrooge. Calling HF Scrooge! Has it occurred to you that you're mentioning here, about how there's Christmas stuff in September in a topic meant for Thanksgiving where noone else has brought up Christmas but you?


Just another curiosity. When you need or want something really bad and someone provides that for you, do you get angered and turn the gift away or do you enjoy it?


Why do you think that because there's an abundance of charity/caring durring the holidays and less through-out the year that the same people who donate then aren't also giving through-out the year?
My husband belongs to a club that's very charitable through-out the year, and every time he buys a beer a portion of his dues/money for signing the books goes to that. He don't just drink durring the holidays, that's for sure. They host motorcycle "rides for life" and pool tournaments where portions of the money go to charity/maybe someone with a child with a terrible illness to help pay hospital bills/travelling costs. And so you're saying if people want to be more generous durring a particular time of year, that that's a bad thing?

[Schme]

No offense intended, Elros, honestly, swear to God, but look around, look deep, man.

First of all, Puerto Rico is controlled by the federal government of the United States. The big parties are in charge out there. Technically they've got they're own deal, but in reality no. If they really ran the show, why would there be a Puerto Rican independance movement, eh? That's like South Africans saying they want to succede from Russia. Wouldn't make sense.

Second, wealth attracts criminals. No. That's not true. The reason there is so much crime is because of class problems in America. There's a lot of money out there. More then enough for everybody. The problem is, it's not shared at all. Some people have nothing, some have more then they could ever use. If everybody had enough money, nobody would steal a godamn thing. Sure, there'd be some, but it'd be very uncommon and fucked up. It'd make the news.

And I'm not talking about theft, here. The guy living in a bungalow out in some slum can't steal any REAL money. Sure, he can break into somebody's house and get ninety bucks for a TV at a pawnshop, and it's sure as hell a bitch for the guy who lost it, but it's just one poor man robbing another, or one poor man robbing a middle class man. The poor man can't touch the money of the insanly rich man, the man with several million. He'd never get near him or his home, and even if he could, the rich man's money is all liquid assets.

The poor man can steal a car radio, mug the rich man, take a nice stereo from his house, whatever, but the rich man doesn't have all his money stacked up in his basement. It's in the bank, a number on a computer, safe away from the poor man or anyone else, ever. He's fine.

Think of the guy with no money. "OK, I've got no money. Fine. I'll just go to school, study really hard, work hard, get a good job." But remember, you're poor. You live in the poor party of town. They've given up and the poor school. You're school just a big piece of crap. Outdated books, apathetic teachers (not their fault,), shitty plumbing, drugs, extortion, and all kinds of other crap.

And what do you do in your spare time? Not much, man. Can hardly be using lots of money for fun. Maybe not even have car. Get into bad way, drugs, booze, whatever, it's finished.

Say you pass highschool, work real hard? Where's the money come from to go to college? Some people can break the cycle and make middle class. Most can't. "I'm going to work my way through college." That's fine, as long as you can get work. A lot of people don't have jobs. Welfare check won't pay for any college.


"You want to have good life, work real hard." Easy to say, but it only works when there's jobs to be had. Ever lived on welfare checks or food stamps, man? Not a fine life, let me tell you. And that's if it's just you. You got kids, what a hell.

Your father not got a job, and someone gives you a chance to either work for seven eleven for seven bucks an hour forever (cuz lets face it, your not going to college), or to sell crack, rake in five hundred a week, what are you gonna do? A five hundred bucks a week pretty good, espicially for little work. And that's all you've got. Those two choices. Someone else wants your market, they either have that or the shitty shift work, they'll fight you for it, and you'll fight to keep it. I don't mean a fist fight, either. Chamber a bullet, get some kevlar and be fucking careful. And then, say you decide you'd like one thousand bucks a week. Kill your enemy, or kill your friend, take their market.

That's how if goes, guy. And the elite are in no danger, and never will be. That's where the murders come from. Replace crack with any commodity. Prostitutes, meth, smack, whatever. It's the same crap.

And growing up aggressive like that, the whole place, people only respect violence, so either your violent or your nothing, so people are violent, and people get hurt and killed.

And not a single person gives a fuck about America. They don't care if it's unpatriotic to sell drugs, to not have a job, to abuse their woman, to break into your house, to rape your daughter, to bust up your church, to shoot someone they don't like, to withhold information. They don't give a fuck. What's America done for them? Even if they've a shred of patriotism (which a lot of Americans do regardless of class. Americans are a very patriotic people.) even if they've some feeling of duty, nothing comes out of it. They still do they same stuff they'd always do, and the same shit happens. A thousand obituaries. Who gives a fuck? And that's how it is.

Same thing in Canada, by the way.

Not at all to say poor people are all degenerate, out of work, sociopathic bastards. No. Not at all. That's not at all what I'm saying, not in the least, far from it. Most people are decent enough, to spite poverty and ignorance. Most people are good people, given a chance. Most work very hard, if they can find a job. Some even work so hard as to break the cycle, against all odds. But say sixty million in America's three hundred are poor. One of every hundred, let's say, is drawn into that world with the sweet promise of easy money, or through the god awful apathy that comes from being poor and having no prospects, being excluded from the REAL good life.

It sure as hell adds up. It adds up to eight thousand murders a year and the biggest prison population in the world.

[Mykey]

You are not right. I am assured. Let's discuss. Write to me in PM, we will talk.

[Elros]

Your whole idea of America sounds like all the stuff the communistic governments used to teach their soldiers a long time ago to make them believe that America was a terrible place to live.

Have you ever actualy lived in America?

Let me put it this way, I drive down the road and see buisness after buisness with "Need Employees", or "Now Hiring" signs. There are so many jobs to be find if people will just get off their lazy butts and go look for one. The problem is, the majority of the people on welfare are on it because they dont want to get out and work. I am not saying all are, I just said a majority. They would rather sit at home and get a small welfare check than actually get out and work hard to make a living.

Let me put it this way. I am only 17 years old, and I make $20 and hour working on a construction job when I am not doing school. I started working in construction when I was 13 for relatives and stuff who were in the industry. I used to make $10 - $20 a day, but the older I got and the harder I worked I started making more. Now I am only 17, and I get $20 an hour tax free, which is twice as much as any of my friends my age make that finally got a job when their parents made them, and get paid $7 and hour at McDonalds.

All I am sying is if you are a legal citizen or visitor here, and have the inniative to work hard and stick with it, then you can make a very good living without ever haveing to sell drugs, shoot someone, or all those other things you were saying.

Last of all, I have grown up back and forth between the USA and many countries in the Carribean. I have lived in Haiti, the Dominican Republic, and the Turks and Caicos Islands. I have also visited many other countries, and I will tell you one thing, everytime I get back to the USA I am so amazed at how wonderful and awesome of a country it is. Why don't you travel to a few countries like Haiti and other third world countries, and then come tell me how terrible America is.

You know what I think it is, I think maybe Canadians are just a little jealous of the USA, but hey I wouldn't blame you.

[Nosajimiki]

I hate to say it... but Elros is on the right track here.

1) Whatever political relations we might have with other countries is irrelivent b/c it's pretty much our rich dicks talking to thier rich dicks, so we have very little intercorse with the mass cultural bodies of such countries to be able to effect crime rates.

2) The problems we do have are not from a lack ways for the lower class to help itself, but from a generation of culturization in which American childern are taught that minorites deserve special privlages, and that we live in a world where money is a given. Problem is it's a lie. Making money requires wits and labour, and our kids (especially in minority groups) are coming up thinking that if they do the bare minimum, they will be alright, or that they are young and will be okay if they make a few "mistakes". Hell if a 10 year old kills someone, he/she isn't even liable b/c it's thier parents fault. I'm not disagreeing with Schme's senerio of the mechanics of how these problems develop, but the psycology is pretty well ignored. After Hurrican Katrina for example, there were fast food restrants hireing for 10+$/hour with 200$ weekly bonuses for full-time, and these places were all rediculusly understaffed untill the federal government started cutting back handouts to those who had lost thier homes and jobs... then you started seeing all sorts of protests about these people not able to find work?! It's a load of crap. I grew up personally knowing a number of drug dealers etc, and my own mother is guilty of a lot of the same lazy "I can't work b/c whatever I deserve free money" crap so I know what drives them, and primarly it's b/c other Americans let them get away with it.

Bad mouthing aside, even the worst parts of the US aren't half as bad as a walk around most parts of some other countries. My stepmom is from Hondorus, and when my dad got back from visting her familly, he was telling me shit about how much worse thier capitol city was than any of the slums or housing projects in our local New Orleans and we were the murder capitol of the country for several years when I was younger.

Also the patriotism comment is pretty full of it too. Just b/c Bush sais people like him doesn't make it true We have one of the world's smallest millitaries for the size of our population, and our last election brought in record lows of voters. In our last several presidential election, most voters responses to the question of why they picked thier canadate was b/c, they hated the other guy more.

As for not being able to go to college, I am paying for college 99.9% via my own labour and achievements. My dad let take some towels and a laundry basket for my room, everything else I've earned either through scholarships from busting ass in highschool, or working fastfood jobs during the summers and for a year after highschool. Stack that onto the fact that I have Tourets Disorder which keeps me from being able to get a drivers license or hold most kinds of jobs, and it's pretty hard to prove that anyone who is not too stupid or lazy to graduate from college anyway is unable to finance it in this country... just meens we can't all go to Havard or Yale.

... wow, this has turned into more of a rant than I ment it to, sorry guys

[Schme]

Your whole idea of America sounds like all the stuff the communistic governments used to teach their soldiers a long time ago to make them believe that America was a terrible place to live.

Sure, whenever there’s a problem, cry Communism. No dice, buddy. You say what I’m saying sounds like anti-American stuff? No, man. Sorry, it’s just the plain old vanilla truth.

You’ve got to face the fact that some people in America don’t have it good, and most of the time, they’re born that way and stay that way. If America is such a classless society, why do people be born poor and stay poor? Who would want to stay poor? Tell me that.

I’m not trying to make America sound bad. I love America. Everyone loves America. Those guys who blew up the World Trade Center used American cell phones. But bad stuff goes on in America, and the system is for the most part to blame.

Have you ever actualy lived in America?

Sure have, brother.

Let me put it this way, I drive down the road and see buisness after buisness with "Need Employees", or "Now Hiring" signs. There are so many jobs to be find if people will just get off their lazy butts and go look for one. The problem is, the majority of the people on welfare are on it because they dont want to get out and work. I am not saying all are, I just said a majority. They would rather sit at home and get a small welfare check than actually get out and work hard to make a living.

Sure. That’s wonderful. Crappy jobs for everyone. No, I know there’s some jobs out there. Most people work the jobs if they can find them. But tell you something, man, you work at a Burger King, you’re not going to break eight bucks an hour. You cannot support a family on eight bucks an hour. Is it unreasonable to want a family, and to want to be able to support your family, keep them reasonably well off? No, I don’t think so. But let’s say I’ve got two kids, and I make eight bucks an hour (More then the usual wage.) My rent is six hundred a month, that’s a one bedroom. Plus utilities, let’s be generously low and say forty. Food, again, let’s say we eat at work, so, fifty, the four of us. Plus every few months or so, we need some new clothes. Say twenty dollars a month (220$ annually, which wouldn’t cover shoes.). Bus tickets for yourself, like fifty a year for a pass. Hardly even factors in. That’s 860$ a month. Plus anything else we could ever need. Five hours a day. Perfect. That’s only a hundred hours a month. Excellent! You’re fine. If the wife works, it’s even better! Honestly, that’s not that bad.

But a hundred hours a month, that’s quite a lot of shifts. Will you be able to get it? Let’s hope so. If not, you’re in trouble. In fact, you’re fucked. All those help wanted signs. Do you know what they want? They want people to fill in the crappy shifts in the middle of the night. That’s what they’re after. You want to work at night while your kids are up to who knows what? Sure, do it. Pretty much everybody else does. You do what you got to do. Of course, you don’t have much for luxuries. You’ll not have a car. And if one of you gets sick, (which they will, cuz you eat bad.) your fucked. Is that so bad? No. Is it the American dream? Not exactly.

Now, if someone’s smoking meth, that throws you off a bit. If you ever get robbed, you’re in trouble. It hurts bad. If you’re kids get into trouble, you can’t bail them out. They go to prison, come out even worse. They’re not going to get an education, by the way. The High School’s a piece of shit, and no high school, no college. Plus, if you’ve got a single parent, things get a bit more complicated. You’re son’s not going to be all that happy where he is in society. He probably won’t want to go to your crappy high school that’s out there for him.

“What do you want to be when you grow up, little Jimmy?”

“I’d like to be a doctor!”

“Well tough shit!”

And that’s how it is if the guy can ACTUALLY GET AS MANY SHIFTS AS HE WANTS. Most places, you can’t. There’s a lot of other people in the same boat. They want the shifts too.

What’s more, this is just in whatever nice place you live in. Say there’s no jobs about, and it does fucking happen, trust me. If you’ve got no job, you have to live on welfare. Welfare checks don’t exactly give you enough to get by. It’s not a reasonable standard of living. By the way, if you get a job while you’re on welfare, try and work part time to supplement your very low income, they cut it down to next to nothing, and you get less then you would if you’d just stayed at home. I agree, you shouldn’t pay people tons of money for being lazy. But most people on welfare aren’t lazy. Most people on welfare just can’t get a job. Believe me, man, I don’t know where you’re from, but it sounds wonderful. There’s places were there are honest to God, only a few shitty fast food jobs to suck the welfare checks dry, and then nothing. Not everyone can work in construction, and believe me, a lot of people would love to. Construction jobs are very good jobs. But you only need so many construction workers. And if there’s one applicant with a high school education and one without, who’re you going to take?


Listen, man, you’re right. You certainly can make a good living in the U.S.A. Most Americans do, in fact. But some can’t, and many don’t. It’s the truth, whether you like or not.

Last of all, I have grown up back and forth between the USA and many countries in the Carribean. I have lived in Haiti, the Dominican Republic, and the Turks and Caicos Islands. I have also visited many other countries, and I will tell you one thing, every time I get back to the USA I am so amazed at how wonderful and awesome of a country it is. Why don't you travel to a few countries like Haiti and other third world countries, and then come tell me how terrible America is.

I’m not talking about “How Terrible America is”. Just because things are going on in other countries. I’m talking about how it’s ridiculous that America, as the richest country in the world, has such a very large poor people. You don’t need all these people down there to be laborers. You’ve got Chinese factories for that. The only reason these people need poor is because the system is put out in such a way as to keep all the money at the top. That’s how it works. And the majority middle class is kept so well off as to be complacent, so that they’ll staff the police forces, they’ll say “Those lazy bastards. They could work hard like me.” And generally just be low level administrators and workers of the guys with big cash. That’s what the whole thing is set up to do.

You know what I think it is, I think maybe Canadians are just a little jealous of the USA, but hey I wouldn't blame you.

Do I not keep saying that it’s the same in Canada? No, man, nobody’s jealous of that crap. We’ve had it since the dawn of our nation. I would like nothing more then to drive such glorious achievements south and barricade the roads. You can have it, buddy. Go nuts.

1) Whatever political relations we might have with other countries is irrelivent b/c it's pretty much our rich dicks talking to thier rich dicks, so we have very little intercorse with the mass cultural bodies of such countries to be able to effect crime rates.

I never said that wasn't true. In fact, that's entirely the problem. Some rich mofos are better the others.

2) The problems we do have are not from a lack ways for the lower class to help itself, but from a generation of culturization in which American childern are taught that minorites deserve special privlages, and that we live in a world where money is a given. Problem is it's a lie. Making money requires wits and labour, and our kids (especially in minority groups) are coming up thinking that if they do the bare minimum, they will be alright, or that they are young and will be okay if they make a few "mistakes".

That's crap, man. People fucking know there's no money to be had, and there sure as hell isn't a way to make it big from the bottom. That's why they stay at the bottom. There's no massive delusions. Every once in a while, Big Whitey comes down and throws some money around, mostly to people who don't do anything because the people who actually do things, who work like mofos to support their families off their crappy job, aren't complaining or starving.

Espicially in minority groups. That's a load, man. People know damn well there's no place for them at the top or near it. Some people can make it, but most cannot. So why do anything? And if there's no jobs, nobody CAN do anything. You're out of it, man. But here's a song you might like.

Hell if a 10 year old kills someone, he/she isn't even liable b/c it's thier parents fault. I'm not disagreeing with Schme's senerio of the mechanics of how these problems develop, but the psycology is pretty well ignored. After Hurrican Katrina for example, there were fast food restrants hireing for 10+$/hour with 200$ weekly bonuses for full-time, and these places were all rediculusly understaffed...

Man, the reason you can't find workers in New Orleans is because nobody's in New Orleans. It's wrecked. It's not even a city anymore. Nobody's coming back. It will be a hamlet until the next flood, until people give up. When there's a huge demand for labour, the pay goes up, yeah. They weren't being altruistic. They needed workers to continue to making money. It's just that this time the cards weren't in their favour.

I wouldn't say I entirely ignore the psychology of it. You need to look closer at what I saying. But I didn't figure it prominently. Yeah, there's a shitload of lazy people out their, who feel people owe them something, who say "Fuck it, I should have things no matter what, and that includes whether or not I'm a lazy freeloader." Believe me, I know, and you're right. But that's not the real problem. If EVERYBODY could make it, if there were jobs for EVERYBODY enough to give them a decent standard of living, jobs so that the whole bunch could get on board, then there'd be no excuse, and virtually nobody would be left down there, except those who deserved it because of sloth. But that's not the situation, and until it is, there's going to be a lot of people who are poor who don't need to be, and a lot of kids getting put out.

Bad mouthing aside, even the worst parts of the US aren't half as bad as a walk around most parts of some other countries.

Trust me, no argument there. I know how it is.

Also the patriotism comment is pretty full of it too. Just b/c Bush sais
people like him doesn't make it true We have one of the world's smallest millitaries for the size of our population, and our last election brought in record lows of voters. In our last several presidential election, most voters responses to the question of why they picked thier canadate was b/c, they hated the other guy more.

Patriotism is not loving George Bush. That's utter crap. A country isn't a person, it's a country. America is America with or without George Bush. What I said was most Americans love their country, even if people don't like their situation in it. Most of the ones I've met, anyways.

As for not being able to go to college, I am paying for college 99.9% via my own labour and achievements. My dad let take some towels and a laundry basket for my room, everything else I've earned either through scholarships from busting ass in highschool, or working fastfood jobs during the summers and for a year after highschool. Stack that onto the fact that I have Tourets Disorder which keeps me from being able to get a drivers license or hold most kinds of jobs, and it's pretty hard to prove that anyone who is not too stupid or lazy to graduate from college anyway is unable to finance it in this country... just meens we can't all go to Havard or Yale.

Like you say, man. Scholorships. You can't get a scholorship is you don't pass high school. You don't pass high school if it's a piece of shit, full of drugs, violence and extortion. You may as well not even go. Sure, some people can work real hard, get through, whatever. With a scholorship, not likely. For everyone who comes out of a crappy high school with a scholorship, there's five thousand who don't.

And you even have all those difficulty you say. That just compounds the difficulty. You've done a lot, good for you. But not everybody has that chance. And no, I'm not bitter here. I'm not talking about myself. But not everybody got that chance. It’s not as simple as you say. Not at all.

Poor America. With it’s minority groups oppressing the white majority, freeloading, sitting around doing nothing. Poor you. Hey, I’ve got a song you might like.

1) Whatever political relations we might have with other countries is irrelivent b/c it's pretty much our rich dicks talking to thier rich dicks, so we have very little intercorse with the mass cultural bodies of such countries to be able to effect crime rates.

I never said that wasn't true. In fact, that's entirely the problem. Some rich mofos are better the others.

2) The problems we do have are not from a lack ways for the lower class to help itself, but from a generation of culturization in which American childern are taught that minorites deserve special privlages, and that we live in a world where money is a given. Problem is it's a lie. Making money requires wits and labour, and our kids (especially in minority groups) are coming up thinking that if they do the bare minimum, they will be alright, or that they are young and will be okay if they make a few "mistakes".

That's crap, man. People fucking know there's no money to be had, and there sure as hell isn't a way to make it big from the bottom. That's why they stay at the bottom. There's no massive delusions. Every once in a while, Big Whitey comes down and throws some money around, mostly to people who don't do anything because the people who actually do things, who work like mofos to support their families off their crappy job, aren't complaining or starving.

Espicially in minority groups. That's a load, man. People know damn well there's no place for them at the top or near it. Some people can make it, but most cannot. So why do anything? And if there's no jobs, nobody CAN do anything. You're out of it, man. But here's a song you might like.

http://www.tightrope.cc/White-Power-MP3s/whitesupremacy.mp3

[Zanthos]

aahh yes, from turkey to economy.

Well I personally loved my thanksgiving pie.

[Elros]

Schme, when it comes down to it, you just do not have it all together on the subject. You can keep giving scenario after snenario about what you think it is like, but when it comes down to it, it is not what you make it out to be.

You asked why do poor people stay poor? Well first of all you have to ask, why are they poor in the first place? Is it because the spent all of their money gambling? Is it because they don't want to get out and work? Is it because someone stole everything they had? Is it because they are handicapped(not likely, because handicapped are decently taken care of with disability)?

If they are poor because they do not want to work, then they will obviously stay poor unless they get out and work, and when they have kids who are born poor as you say, they will do one of two things, they will either despise the laziness of their parent and the situation of poverty they are in and will get out and work their butt off so that their children don't have to go through the same childhood that they had, or they will follow in their parent's footsteps and be lazy and stay poor.

Same goes for all of the above, if their parent or parents gambled and lost all their maoney, than they will either despise it and be the opposite, or end up getting stuck in the same situation.

Then you have the people who were stolen from and lost everything. For instance, my Grandpa owned a large buisness which he spent years building up and he was a fairly rich person. He was a millionare and this was back in the 80's. However a man came along and ended up stealing his company through fraud and a bunch of other illegal activities, and my Grandpa and Granma lost everything. Their house, car, everything. However, since my Grandpa was a man that was willing to work hard despite the situation, he started over again working small jobs here and there. Even though he is not "rich" today, he and my grandma have a nice house, two cars, and all the food that they need.

It is this simple, if you do get out and work hard, and want to succeed, and are willing to work for it, then you can. The problem is many people say, "I want to be rich and successful", but then they drop out of highschool, or decide that working in a low paying job for 2 years to get into college is too much work. So the spend the rest of their life living with hardly nothing and thus becoming part of the "poor" group that you keep talking about.

Last of all I just want to say that I do not think that Nosajimiki was being rascist or "White Supemeist" as you said at all. He was just stating some simple facts on the topic of what we were discussing. I happen to agree with everything he was sayiong also(except for the part about Patriotism which you nailed down afterward).