Technology

[kroner]

yes! item decay!!!!!! (i haven't yelled that enough recently)

[Sho]

The main problem with our way of implementing the plans idea is that places that have lots of advanced technologies could just copy the plans off of their existing machines, vehicles and tools. I can't really see a good way to get around this, but I suppose item decay might help. Anyone have good ideas?
It might help a little to put the tech tree idea into effect around the time that a cool but technologically low-level new thing gets added, like something on the novelty level of clothing. Even the advanced locations would have to research it, while even relatively backwards places could research it without having to research all the preceding technologies.

[Anthony Roberts]

Item decay? Ewwwww. It's a good idea, don't get me wrong. But I don't like it - I don't want my weapon suddenly break because I used it too much - but, yeah, it would help balance the game.

As for the plans. Now that's an interesting problem to work around. *Thinks for a minute* Okay! The plans system just gets thrown in, and everyone needs to obide by it, but as a reward - everyone will gain the plan of all items they've worked on before, currently are working on, have completed, or have in their inventory. That way, they can keep going at their normal projects, yadda yadda. For those places "technically advanced" as said, it wouldn't be a problem, if the "looking at something to gain the plans" was not implemented. The only way to get them, would be to work on the prerequisite or... however it's planned to be. I forgot. Damn. Hehe.

[David]

And if you just signed up yesterday you would be the person to say Ewwww... to the plans idea. Basically, you are fine with an idea that keeps you relatively at the same level or even increases your power, at the expense of countless people who haven't even registered yet. But when it comes to something that may amount to a little loss of power, for the good of game balance its "ewww".... at least you acknowledged that it might be good for game balance...

Do you see your own slant? Your thinking in terms of what helps your individual character situations, and almost blind to the overall destablilizing effects on the game... but at least you acknowledge the game balance thing...

This reminds of the time a few people were advocating for a hamstringed combat system while at the same time wanting to tilt things in the economic department to basically make things ideal for one play style - "the greedy robber baron" at the expense of all other playstyles... I have extensive posts on the subject somewhere...

You would_ AT LEAST_ have to implement and extensive decay system if you were to implement this plans system, maybe even more drastic measures...

Cantrs main challenge at this point is bringing in a fresh supply of new people, which means newbies and newspawns.... do you think that as many will stay when they see that the game is coded against them? Many of us are complaining about a lapse in activity, and doing yet another thing to maintain the current ruling class and making social mobility even harder... I mean the newspawns have already taken a huge hit... *cough the way hematite was implemented *cough*

I doubt giving them a "one-two" punch with that and plans is any way to get a mass of new subscribers.... I mean hematite is already a HUGE factor in maintaining the current ruling class and making newspawns powerless, even if they live into later ages...

Its not a matter of people complaining about getting tools and weapons right off the bat in the wilderness... I have many posts that poke fun at that attitude. but a matter of making it very very hard for advancement, and very very easy for oldies to hold on to power with no effort whatsover... its literally been hard-coded into the game now to make those that are in power- who may have had a relatively easy time getting there and maintaining are standing on a glass ceiling above newbs...

I want many more new people to come play... but I don't think giving them another shot in the kidney and step on the neck will bring more here... decay should be the next big project... and by all means partially attach usability to the age of weapons to weaken the now fat and lazy decadent aristocracy heh....

See... some seem to be shocked by decay saying... well that would decrease my influence drastically in foul swoop! What do you think happened when hematite was implemented to countless newbs and people yet to register... see influence is relative, and decay brings all down, meaning the things would stay about the same in power-relationships, whereas plans would just propel the idle rich to even greater hieghts... along with the current implementation of hematite....

Hema is ok, but please... I can't believe people are advocating things that would even further enshrine a tiny tiny group, and alienate potential new players... not really tho... most people operate from self-interest completely, whether consciously or uncounsciously...

Just as a real life example of this dynamic:

It kind of reminds me of many of the WASPS in America who say: Huh? There is no real racism anymore? Well that's because you don't have to deal with it like minorities do, you live in your own little insulated community and are of the dominant group. Or you chose not to educate yourself to the true dynamics of latent unjust social factors, because then that reduces the legitamacy of your own status in society... and we can't have that. ROFL

[Sho]

Right. That's why we need to make some ways to balance the plans for new people. I'm personally an advocate for the lower classes of Cantr, since that's what all of my characters are. Perhaps we could limit the number of plans that a person can carry. This way younger characters wouldn't be at so much of a disadvantage. The Ladvicitavoi workshop foreman may have the plans for a laser cannon (just an example, I have no desire to see that implemented), but if he can only hold 10 plans, some other workers will have to have access to lower level plans. The main problem with this idea is that I haven't found a realistic explanation for it.

[David]

Is there a realistic explanation for why a person can carry around 15000 grams indefinitely..., or only hit someone once a day no. So it becomes a matter of game balance. May even want to make the limit lower than 10.

[Sho]

Maybe the ability to copy plans off of an object is the problem. If we just eliminate that and make it so that people can only copy plans off of another plan, I think that would solve most of the major problems with plans. Everyone in Cantr would start off on square one when the plans system was implemented.
It would also be realistic. In real life, you can't really learn how to build something just by watching, and you certainly can't write up blueprints just by watching. You need to see the blueprints. The same could be true of plans.

[west]

I've always argued against further complicating the game.

It's gotten way more complicated just in the time that I've played. We have to strike a balance such that playability isn't sacrificed and the learning curve isn't too discouraging. Current players can deal with modifications one at a time--but newspawns get them all at once. I really don't like the hematite thing. If hematite had been implemented in places that didn't already have iron, that would have been great--given a blow to the powers that have been in charge for a long time...but this just makes it even worse--the haves can readily manufacture the few more items necessary, but now making iron is as hard as making steel used to be.

I really don't like it. I like refinements, not complications

The combat system is a good example of refinement, even if it has gone too far.

We've gone from too formulaic to too random. A middle ground would be great.

I've had something like 4 or 5 friends try cantr within the past year, and all but one quit within the first few weeks because it was too compicated or too time consuming or the learning curve was too great.

The absence of a good tutorial really hurts, as well as an overview that's less than 600 days old.

Blargh.

That being said, I'm still addicted.

[thingnumber2]

Yes complications do make it tougher, but plans might actually balance the game better...I've had friends as well quit because of the complexity, but so far 3 out of 3 started again after a few months, and are doin pretty good...

[David]

Yah... perhaps there should be an official manual for a lot of this stuff... and if the staff doesn't have the resources to make a good one in a reasonable amount of time, then perhaps players could, just with their blessing. I mean, basically saying that all of this have to learn in-game sets up a situations where experienced players are the gatekeepers of information and can lord it over newbs... and discourages newbs to play, west's example is a good one, there are games much more complicated than this... the problem is that too much is excpected to be learned in-game... again we have the WASPs that think their is no racism problem...

If oldies already have most of the info and just have to learn one new thing in game... its easy for them to say, sure go ahead, and fully agree with learning it all in-game. We are so immersed in this world its hard for us to realize how alien it can be to a newb.

[Solfius]

personally, I think stuff like knowing how to make things should be handled behind the scenes so that players don't have to see them, or worry about it, it just happens.

If you want to make an interface guide, which I think would be the most useful thing to a new player, then it would be welcomed I think. An interface guide I think is the best kind of newbie guide because it explains how to actually play the game, without giving away the ins and outs of the game, such as specific processes and tools, which should be learnt in game, but atill allows them to become familiar with the interface and how to play, which isn't strictly something to be learnt IC

[thingnumber2]

I like that one idea a while back, where there is a newbie island,where all the first characters go, and violence and things that are disabled...you could even have different resources and things than are actually in cantr, so that they wouldn't automatically know everything...but just a place where they can get used to everything, before they're thrust into cantr....with a few vets there to give em a hand...

[Sho]

Sounds good. Where was this idea? I want to read more about it.

[west]

Oh, did you notice that newspawns can't use violence for the first few days now? Isn't that awesome?

[Bowser]

I like that one idea a while back, where there is a newbie island,where all the first characters go, and violence and things that are disabled...you could even have different resources and things than are actually in cantr, so that they wouldn't automatically know everything...but just a place where they can get used to everything, before they're thrust into cantr....with a few vets there to give em a hand...

Great Idea... they would have to wander around an island and collect certain resources to complete a task in order to make it to the mainland. That could be their childhood, the pre-20's in which they complete tasks in order to be spawned.

If they build a shovel and dig their way to the mainland, they spawn in a mainland city, if they build a log raft and paddle away, they can spawn on a coast or lakeside. They could make their way to a cave and spawn in a mountain range.

Forget that whole idea, just write a totally new game... one with killer robots that own puppies.