Religion

[Sicofonte]

Dee, you're trying to put God into human concepts. God's supposed to be all powerful and all loveing. God might be completely distressed about our state of life, but no matter what we do, We're each like his only child. He's got no choice but to love us anyway... If hell exists, and God is what we say God is, we condemn ourselves.

Which one? Christian god? Jewish one obviously no. Maybe Muslim, but I haven't read the Koran and I don't know if Allāh is only love or severity and punishment too.

Anyways, ALL this thread is put into human terms.


God is perfect. Perfection doesn't exists. Do the association.



We humans are so funny. We think because we feel, but later we always claim at being using the reason and not the mood.


HF: xD



PS: I'm christian brought up and atheist convert.

[Dee]

I did take a serious look at Islam as the potential truth. But the extremely bad feeling I got while praying about the subject was answer enough for me. If that was 'just me' I would've felt it the minute I started considering it, not just when I started praying about it.

Dee, what if you weren't born into a Muslim family? What if you were born somewhere in China, approximately AD 170, you never knew Islam, lived a good life anyway, and got raped and killed when your village got massacred by Dong Zhuo's soldiers in the late 180's? And then you got sent to Hell because you weren't a Muslim? Is that fair? Is that right, to live a good life despite being poor, to be horribly abused and then killed and then find out that your reward for helping those in need was eternal Damnation because you weren't part of this or that specific religion?

Hell, no! If I never heard about it, then why would I get punished for something I didn't know about? Nalaris, God IS forgiving. He would never do that... And as I said many times, yes I was born into a Muslim family, but I have a mind of my own, and I almost converted to a Christian, or even to an athiest, but I used my mind to think, I read the Qur'an, and I used my senses.

It's those who know about Islam, and know that it is the truth, and are not mislead, and still do not follow it, those are the ones that are going to hell. Because they know, and they do nothing about it... It's like becoming God's enemy... It's exactly that.

[rklenseth]

Why does it matter what anyone believes? As long as that person isn't telling you that you have to believe this and that then why should I care and what is it my business as to what that person believes? And why are we made to argue over that? Why should I feel offended because someone else doesn't believe that exact thing that I do? What right does any person have to tell others how to live and what to believe? Why can't we just accept that we all don't agree and as long as we aren't hurting each other for believing that thing (then we would 'all' have to come to compromise) then why don't we just live in peace? What are we losing by doing this?

[Nosajimiki]

Hell, no! If I never heard about it, then why would I get punished for something I didn't know about? Nalaris, God IS forgiving. He would never do that... And as I said many times, yes I was born into a Muslim family, but I have a mind of my own, and I almost converted to a Christian, or even to an athiest, but I used my mind to think, I read the Qur'an, and I used my senses.

It's those who know about Islam, and know that it is the truth, and are not mislead, and still do not follow it, those are the ones that are going to hell. Because they know, and they do nothing about it... It's like becoming God's enemy... It's exactly that.

Here's a question: what about people like myself, Sicofonte, Nakranoth, etc. We were all raised to believe in God(though be it from a christian background, not Muslim) and at a certain point that belief lost credibility in our eyes. We all know about God but do no believe in him. Do you believe that we will be damned for our lack of faith, or saved because we do not know his existance to be truth, and by not believing in him are we makeing ourselves his enemies?

Another question: to what point do you think ignorance of God's sense of morality is exusable? Can a person who is raised to believe that murder is okay still be saved or are there rules that are not excusable? Also, if there are unexcusable laws, does this mean that you believe that God holds your faithfulness to him in less esteme than your treatment of your fellow man if he is more flexable with rules regarding himself?

[Dee]

Here's a question: what about people like myself, Sicofonte, Nakranoth, etc. We were all raised to believe in God(though be it from a christian background, not Muslim) and at a certain point that belief lost credibility in our eyes. We all know about God but do no believe in him. Do you believe that we will be damned for our lack of faith, or saved because we do not know his existance to be truth, and by not believing in him are we makeing ourselves his enemies?

Yes. Unfortunately, yes. Because then you know the truth, but you chose to ignore it. If you do not feel that there is a God anymore... I don't know, try harder, maybe? Read stuff. Maybe reading won't get you anywhere... Look around you, think about the little creatures. Think about humans... Take, for example, the human mind... A single thing.. One single thing, but at the same time is a miracle itself. This little human mind is a miracle... Read about it. Know about nature...

I don't know what to say... But the answer to your question is yes.

Another question: to what point do you think ignorance of God's sense of morality is exusable? Can a person who is raised to believe that murder is okay still be saved or are there rules that are not excusable? Also, if there are unexcusable laws, does this mean that you believe that God holds your faithfulness to him in less esteme than your treatment of your fellow man if he is more flexable with rules regarding himself?

If you're a killer because your parents taught you that it is okay to be a killer, then it's them who would be punished because they are the ones who made you believe it is okay.

Another thing I wanted to say... When I say God is forgiven, I mean that only God can consider all the circumstances around you, and even if you don't believe in him, he MAY forgive you due to the world around you and how everyone is behaving.. No one is sure of anything, only God knows who He'll forgive and who He will not forgive. So, I cannot decide if you are going to hell or to heaven... Only Him can decide.

[Nalaris]

The concept of God punishing those who have never heard of His religion is an almost universal flaw, and I've heard Muslims speak that way before. Now I'm going to have to go read the Qu'ran again and see if it says anything on the subject...where was that E-version again? My libraries copy is practically falling apart.

[deadboy]

The curious thing for me is that in a sense I should be the very last person to be religious. I base far more on what I can physically see or prove than what I theorise, as I think that theories -should- always be discredited, merely for the sake of making more accurate ones, and this should and does for me apply in the case of a god. Nor is it the fact that creation seems to be some sort of a miracle or a sense of smallness that makes me religious, as I know that not only is there a possibility of this all happening by chance I know that as the universe is close to infinite there is a close to certain chance of us existing as those small minds.

No, I think the main reason I am still Christian is that I sense a distinct order within the world. This may not be clear enough... so let me take an example, Alan Suger, is it, the owner of Amstram? Well, in my 16 years of living I had never heard of him. I then heard of him four times in three days from four different people, whilst discussing completely different topics, without me giving any input to his mention. Again, this could be chance and if it only happened once I would most likely pass it off as it, but no, if you pay close attention, I think you should notice this sort of thing happening everyday, I do - Not just in this sense of coincidence, that was merely a very, very simple example, but also in many other aspects you will notice an order and design. Yes, I think it is probably this that makes me religious.

[Nosajimiki]

I for the most part agree with deadboy on the theory concept, except that I dont see order in the universe as a sign of a devine guiding hand; rather, I see it as a natural nessessity of a universe that uses such a redundant framework(billions of nearly identically constructed humans on a single planet all made of the same couple of subatomic particles(or waves)). Suddenly hearing about Alan Suger a lot is to be exepcted b/c he was recently a pivitol figure in a reality TV show and if you look at most examples of that matter you will see some kind of social trigger that causes this kind of thing.

I don't know, try harder, maybe? Read stuff. Maybe reading won't get you anywhere... Look around you, think about the little creatures. Think about humans... Take, for example, the human mind... A single thing.. One single thing, but at the same time is a miracle itself. This little human mind is a miracle... Read about it. Know about nature...

now this is the kind of thinking that made me realize he does not need to exist to begin with. Under the same circumstances that you precieve miraculus inventions, I see orderly chemical by-products resulting from countless itterations of genetic trial and error. This however raises another question. Have you ever considered the possibility that God intentionally creates people to think in such a way that they will not be able to believe in him in order to serve purposes that a faithful follower could not?

[deadboy]

I for the most part agree with deadboy on the theory concept, except that I dont see order in the universe as a sign of a devine guiding hand; rather, I see it as a natural nessessity of a universe that uses such a redundant framework(billions of nearly identically constructed humans on a single planet all made of the same couple of subatomic particles(or waves)). Suddenly hearing about Alan Suger a lot is to be exepcted b/c he was recently a pivitol figure in a reality TV show and if you look at most examples of that matter you will see some kind of social trigger that causes this kind of thing.

I don't know, try harder, maybe? Read stuff. Maybe reading won't get you anywhere... Look around you, think about the little creatures. Think about humans... Take, for example, the human mind... A single thing.. One single thing, but at the same time is a miracle itself. This little human mind is a miracle... Read about it. Know about nature...

now this is the kind of thinking that made me realize he does not need to exist to begin with. Under the same circumstances that you precieve miraculus inventions, I see orderly chemical by-products resulting from countless itterations of genetic trial and error. This however raises another question. Have you ever considered the possibility that God intentionally creates people to think in such a way that they will not be able to believe in him in order to serve purposes that a faithful follower could not?

Yes, this one one of the ways that his name popped up. The first time was whilst talking about "An inspecter calls" and the neveau riche. The second was his actual company from memory, which led onto him, I think it was in discussing economy although I cannot remember how it came about, the third I cannot quite remember how and the fourth came from a discussion about the big idea, which led onto a mention of the apprentice and him. Now, as I said, this is merely an example, and not to be taken as me seeing a single coincidence as this almost certainly was, and using is as proof of a god. I merely wanted to give you an example of the ways in which you can see order

[N-Aldwitch]

I just can't believe how many pages this has gotten! It's bordering on 100, almost!

[Nalaris]

No matter how small a fraction of the total argument, eight pages is still a lot.

[Sicofonte]

by not believing in him are we makeing ourselves his enemies?

Yes. Unfortunately, yes. Because then you know the truth, but you chose to ignore it. If you do not feel that there is a God anymore... I don't know, try harder, maybe?

I'm sorry, but I can't chose the truth. The truth just IS. You can chose one or another, since there is only one. I call it Reality.
When I tried to ignore it, never got good results.

If I see the Reality that I see, is not due my election, but due to how my mind works: what I see makes my think in one way.

Why? Why God made me in that way? Why He/She/They gave me less Faith (or more Intelligence) than to others? He/She/They is condemning me! (or God doesn't exist)

I would prefer to KNOW that there is a heaven and a eternal life. But i KNOW that to die would be the last think I'll do... oh, it's fantastic, isn't?... I really would preffer to have a fucking heaven waiting for me!

Read stuff

That's the problem, I started reading, looking, thinking... and all those Truth became ilogical, incongruous...

Maybe reading won't get you anywhere...

Certainly. I know lots of people that read true and false information, and they choose the wrong one.

Look around you, think about the little creatures. Think about humans... Take, for example, the human mind... A single thing.. One single thing, but at the same time is a miracle itself. This little human mind is a miracle... Read about it. Know about nature...

My work usually revolves around mind functioning (artificial neural networks) and I spend all the time I can learning the physic and biology of real brains (not only human). The conclussion is simple, although just a bunch of people can believe in it since they can't understant it:
Emotions, thoughts, impulses, wishes, reasoning... intelligence is fruit of the evolution.

I can contibute with several rather long and complex reasonings about this theme and others dealing with the existence of God. But just one would be pretty better, I now it won't be usefull for anyone (for any direction of the conversion):
The eyes. That biological machine that allows vision. It's a miracle... well, no, it was a miracle. Now it's a bunch of theorems and techniques. Right now we understand all of its functioning, an we are starting to produce the first artificial biological eyes. The problems right now are the building process (nanometric).
The point is that human vision is another biological process quite related to human thinking, and not so much simpler than thinking (that is a set of biological interrelated processes). Then, we'll understand human thinkin, we'll be able to create intelligent humans. Then, god doesn't exist.

Another thing I wanted to say... When I say God is forgiven, I mean that only God can consider all the circumstances around you [...] No one is sure of anything, only God knows who He'll forgive and who He will not forgive.

God knows everything (and was there since and for ever). That's another way to founded assert the non existence of God. Two light examples:
- if God would be eternal and omniscient, He/She/They would had create the world very very much early in the time, just in the begining. If not, He/She/They would had been alone and bored in the void for an eternity, and that's illogical even for a God.
- Someone that knows everything doesn't need to check or judge anything or anyone, He/She/They already knows the result. Our souls coul be put into heaven or hell even before its existence.

[Nalaris]

God seems more likely to exist than not, but if he just came down and said 'yup, I'm real and so is Heaven' then there would be no test of faith. Our very exitance on Earth would be pointless.

Sicofonte...God sends you trials. If you overcome them, you will be rewarded. For someone not born into the truth, that trial can be as simple as finding God, because that in and of itself is difficult(and maintaining the belief in the wake of conversion). For someone who is taught the truth from birth or who finds conversion easy, other trials will be sent. But God will not test you past your capability(although I'm pretty sure he'll test everyone of us right up to the breaking point).

Like Deadboy said, the strange order of the universe suggests a plan of creation, not a random explosion of near infintessimally dense matter. Why haven't there been any more Big Bangs? Where did convenient equations like Phi come from? I could think of others, but I'm short on time.

[deadboy]

Oh no, I completely accept that the universe may well have come from "a random explosion of near infintessimally dense matter", however, I think that although it seemed random it had something behind it pulling the strings, and if you've read some of my ealier posts I think that creation by a god and creation by a big bang are not so different anyhow

[Nakranoth]

Why haven't there been any more Big Bangs? Where did convenient equations like Phi come from? I could think of others, but I'm short on time.

For one, in order to have another Big Bang we either need more mass (the law of conservation of mass/energy suggests this as being impossible) or all the mass that currently exists to recollect into the center of the universe. Phi is simply the relation between the radius of a circle and it circumference, it exists because circles exist and we decided to measure it.