Narrative form of Talking

[psymann]

Apologies if this has been suggested before - I've had a look but can't see it...


Suggestion: Allow a narrative form of "talking" to people.

Details: Allow removal of the [so-and-so says:] beginning to each event and allow people to write in a narrative form. They must include their name [so-and-so] in at least one place so people still know who is being talked about.

Explanation:
At present, if I want to say something, I type it in the box and the output is of a fixed format. For instance, if I type in:

Hello everybody *smiles*

Then the output is:

psymann says: "Hello everybody *smiles*"


This is fine if I have only a couple of things to "do" at the same time as I'm talking. But I find this really restricting. For instance, what I want to say is this:

"Ok, I'm off," psymann says to the various people who happen to be nearby. "Will see you all before too long," he adds. "Especially if you're cooking..." adds his belly, fortunately in its own untranslatable language.

This if course comes out as:

psymann says: ""Ok, I'm off," psymann says to the various people who happen to be nearby. "Will see you all before too long," he adds. "Especially if you're cooking..." adds his belly, fortunately in its own untranslatable language."

which is rather nonsensical. But if I try to write it in the current format, I have to go for a result of:

psymann says: *talks to various people who happen to be nearby* Ok, I'm off. *adds* Will see you all before too long. *belly talks, fortunately in its own untranslatable language* Especially if you're cooking...

And I'm not sure this really works. Take another example:

I want to say:

A sad psymann looks around. It's been a long time since he found food, and his eyes have taken on an almost supernatural look as he gazes around the place. He looks everywhere for something to put in his belly. "Oh how nice," he murmers, as he finds a few bones and a pile of dung, but his belly moans disagreeably at those options, and puts in a not unreasonable request for something edible. Finally he settles for ten miserable grams of potatoes he finds on the floor. "Why did I come to this awful place?" he asks, of no-one in particular, as he starts to search the buildings in desperation.

I'd have to put this as:

[color=orange]psymann (a man in his twenties) says: "*looks sad. With eyes looking supernatural, gazes around the place. Looks everywhere for something to put in his belly. Finds a few bones and a pile of dung.* Oh how nice *Belly moans disagreeably at the options. Belly asks for something edible. Decides to take the ten grams of potatoes he can find on the floor. Turns to no-one in particular* Why did I come to this awful place? *starts to search buildings.*"[/color]

Quite apart from being almost impossible to construct correctly, this last oue is very hard to read and loses almost all of its charm.

The suggestion is therefore for me to be able to write the text from before, putting [psymann (a man in his twenties)] in on the first place he's mentioned. This would give:

A sad [color=orange]psymann (a man in his twenties) looks around. It's been a long time since he found food, and his eyes have taken on an almost supernatural look as he gazes around the place. He looks everywhere for something to put in his belly. "Oh how nice," he murmers, as he finds a few bones and a pile of dung, but his belly moans disagreeably at those options, and puts in a not unreasonable request for something edible. Finally he settles for ten miserable grams of potatoes he finds on the floor. "Why did I come to this awful place?" he asks, of no-one in particular, as he starts to search the buildings in desperation.[/color]


Hope that makes sense, will have to proofread this later as someone else needs the computer!

psymann

[Elros]

So you are saying that you want to do away with this:

player 1 says:"Hello"

player 2 says:"Hello to you sir"

player 3 says:"How are the both of you doing?"

player 2 says:"I am doing fine sir, how about you?"

player 3 says:"I am not so good."

player 1 says:"I am pretty good also."


And make it looks like this:

"Hello"

"Hello to you sir"

"How are the both of you doing?"

"I am doing fine sir, how about you?"

"I am not so good."

"I am pretty good also."


Do you see how confusing that is with just 3 people. Now imagine a town of 25 people all talking different conversations. You can't keep up with who is saying what. I do not think it is a good idea. I "do" see where you are coming from, and how it is hard to be narrative, but I think the change would cause more bad than good.

[deadboy]

So you're that woman in Akypor are you?

I personally hate this style, it annoys me as Cantr is not a novel, and this just breeds people writing their thoughts, which the characters cannot see (For example here you said "A sad psyman")


Besides, you can write Psyman says:"*He looks around, sadness on his face. He is thin and frail and has clearly not eaten as of late. He stumbles across a few bones and a pile of dung and murmers* Oh, how nice.... *His stomach moans disagreably at these options, and groans a not unreasonable request for something edible. Finally he discovers a few grams of potatoes and picks them up, looking hard done by by this meagre option. He then asks to no-one in particular, as he starts to search the building in desperation* Why did I come to this place?"

You see, it's all a matter of tensing and being precise, but you can write perfectly well between the **'s without having to revert to "...." He said. "...." He asked etc

[SekoETC]

After a while you learn to ignore the "You say:". It's a bit of a shame that a game as crappy as RaceWarKingdoms has an emote option, where the name of the character is added to the beginning of the line without any : or anything after it, just a blank space, and then you can write in a natural sentence, just as long as it starts with the character name.

Be that the emoting was really creative writing, the characters could come up with things they didn't really have. So that's different from Cantr.

Oh and also, I once spoke to a newb there that didn't know who was writing the emotes, because you would only notice that the names in the beginning are links if you hover over them with the cursor.

When I was a newbie, I spoke a lot about things I didn't have, for example one of my characters had a brimmed hat and a pipe. He hasn't used them in years now. Another character of mine was very much emo and transmitting her thoughts to all the unfortunate people present. Not to mention parents and brothers, forced marriages and kitchen knives.

...It's a bit of a shame but Cantr just can't tolerate this type of creativity. Your inventory is your limit, not your imagination.

[Chris Johnson]

I think you are forgetting what Cantr is, it is an interactive roleplaying game . Characters experiences are shaped by their interaction with the characters of other players. These experiences should reflect what the others can see, hear and witness. Your examples are full of description of internal and unobservable states . It may make good narrative but it isn't good role playing and is unsuited to the game

By all means say *his belly rumbles* but other characters shouldn't be aware that you've not eaten for days or are explicitly looking for food unless they can deduce it from your actions.

[Schme]

I agree with deadboy. It doesn't work.

"A sad psymann looks around."

How can anybody know you're sad? Can they read your mind?

[Marian]

Yeah, I'm going to have to agree with deadboy on this one. (kill me now...)

'Narrative' style RP is usually something I see on forums or play-by-email games, but in Cantr you're not writing a novel, you're living a life and acting out a role...all the other people you meet are just as much the 'stars' as you are, it's not like a book where you know every single thought the main character has. Think of it like real life - you communicate through words, body language, and actions. A lot of what you suggested goes back to the whole 'telepathic characters' argument that we have from time to time.

Basically what it comes down to is other chars shouldn't be able to read your char's mind, and whenever possible RP should be kept to actions that can actually be seen and interpreted (or possibly misinterpreted). For instance *looks morosely down the road and sighs, his shoulders slumped* is always going to be MUCH more preferable than *sighs, feeling depressed about his girlfriend leaving*

That leads to all kinds of problems, even when it's not quite that blatant....I remember one time a mute char who came to town and pointed at a woman, then said something like *looks angrily at the thief and scowls* and everyone was all like 'OMG, I think that woman's a thief'

Usually anything you want to get across can be done in the regular way with just a little creativity. (why would you want to say *belly talks, fortunately in its own untranslatable language* when 'his belly rumbles loudly, as if in agreement* could get the same thing across and look so much more natural anyway?)

[deadboy]

Yeah, I'm going to have to agree with deadboy on this one. (kill me now...)

[psymann]

Hmm, ok, interesting reactions so far.

===================

First a quick explanation for Elros: no that's not what I'm suggesting, because you'd be right otherwise it would be very confusing!

What I am suggesting is that each line must include the phrase "psymann (man in his twenties)" but that it is up to the writer to add this phrase in the best place. So you can stick to the default, which is:
psymann (man in his twenties) says: "Hello"
psydkik (man in his twenties) says: "Hello to you sir"
Or you can go for my method, giving the option of continuing with:
"How are the both of you doing?" enquires psyborg (man in his twenties)
"I am doing fine sir, how about you?" answers psydkik (man in his twenties) in return.

So in both cases you have the same information - it's just that in the second one, it's not fixed into being at the beginning and you have some options to use a verb other than "say".

============

Now onto the main bit:


There are two distinct issues here. One is:

- role-playing things that other players can't see

The other is

- writing in a narrative style


I'd like to make this distinction clear, and respond to your points.


The problems you all raise, quite correctly, is that it doesn't make sense if what you write can not be seen by the other characters. The fact I do this is just indicative of the fact I have never played role-playing games of any kind before, so I do make mistakes while I get used to it.

However, I would say that this has nothing to do with whether you narrate it, or whether you use those stars.

Marian, you mention: "I remember one time a mute char who came to town and pointed at a woman, then said something like *looks angrily at the thief and scowls* and everyone was all like 'OMG, I think that woman's a thief' "

Now this is an example of someone writing something that characters couldn't see - but this was done in the style of the stars that you all like! This just shows that forcing everything to start with "psymann says:" does not prevent bad role-playing from happening.




What you actually want is for me to improve and not write such crappy role-play - which is fair enough!

So what I could write is this (I have taken the two examples from above, and re-written them better I hope!):

"Ok, I'm off," psymann (man in his twenties) explains to the various people who happen to be nearby. "Will see you all before too long," he adds, as his belly rumbles in its own untranslatable language.

A sad-looking psymann (a man in his twenties) peers around. He clutches at his stomach, and his eyes have taken on an almost supernatural look as he gazes around the place. "Oh how nice," he murmers, as he finds a few bones and a pile of dung, and his belly moans with an unpleasant sound. Finally he settles for ten miserable grams of potatoes he finds on the floor. "Why did I come to this awful place?" he asks, seemingly of no-one in particular, as he starts to search the buildings.

I think I've written those well now, and that they do not have in them more information than should be given. I just need more practise at that as admittedly my first attempts were not as good as I'd thought.

However, fixing it to the stars format does not fix the problems - as you all demonstrate:

Besides, you can write Psyman[n] says:"*He looks around, sadness on his face. He is thin and frail and has clearly not eaten as of late. He stumbles across a few bones and a pile of dung and murmers* Oh, how nice.... *His stomach moans disagreably at these options, and groans a not unreasonable request for something edible. Finally he discovers a few grams of potatoes and picks them up, looking hard done by by this meagre option. He then asks to no-one in particular, as he starts to search the building in desperation* Why did I come to this place?"

The same questions as you put to me can be put to this:
- How can you be so sure he has clearly not eaten just because he is thin and frail? He might just be a thin person.
- How can you say his belly has groaned a request for something edible? That groan could mean absolutely anything.


The point then, is that the role-play being good is based on my ability to write it well (which currently is pretty poor!). It is not based on whether or not you use stars and whether or not you start every line with "psymann says:".

So my challenge to you all now is to have a look at my re-vamped entries above and let me know if you have any problems with those.


In essense, I guess all I'm asking for is to be allowed to make the sentence make sense when it appears on the screen, and to allow me to write my role-play in a manner which is pleasant to read. Sentences such as:
psymann says: "*slaps own face and talks in a screaming manner* Curses! *stamps foot*"
is nasty to read but follows the style I think you all like... then by making it:
psymann says: "*slapping his face, psymann screams:* Curses *and stamps his foot*"
it is in a more narrative style and more interesting to read but still the punctuation makes it unpleasant and somewhat confusing to go through, whereas:
Slapping his face, psymann screams, "Curses!" and stamps his foot
is a proper English sentence, and is nice to read.

Call me picky, but for the same reason you won't see me using MSN-speak, I really hate being forced to write in crappy English.

Ok, so the summary is:

My role-play is crap and I'll try to make it better.
My suggestion is nothing to do with that, and still stands - please continue to comment

psymann


Edit:
PS: a point which occurred to me just now which may have some relevance to this discussion:

I attended a deeply boring lecture last week on personal branding *vomits*. Anyway, one of the things we were told, which is fairly widely known, is that what you say has little effect on how you are perceived. Your body language and your appearance make up a remarkably high percentage of someone's opinion of you - for example compare these:

*psymann raises hand and bears down on psydkik with a grimace on his face and a stare in his eyes* Thanks *he growls fiercely at psydkik, waving his fist and bringing his fearsome face within inches of psydkik's*

*psymann comes over to psydkik wearing his best shirt, and with a smile on his face. He puts his arms round psydkik's neck. Gazing into psydkik's eyes, he gives him a brief kiss* Thanks *he says in soft tones as he strokes psydkik's hair*

So surely in a good role-play, the majority of what you write should be describing his appearance and actions, not his words? So far I've seen people use 95% words and 5% actions - and I believe that the format of "psymann says:" encourages this lack of description. And I'm not asking for incorrect description - ie interpretations - I'm just saying a description of outwardly visible appearance and actions.

[deadboy]

Why not just put *Slapping his face, he screams* Curses! *and stamps his foot*? It is just as grammatically correct as it is the same just with he and between **'s, I cannot see I wholey see the point of your idea. Also, how would you make it a dynamic name where you want it to be a dynamic name and how would you make certain that everyone includes there names?

The old method works, and what ain't broke don't need to be fixed. Let's just stick with it

[psymann]

Why not just put *Slapping his face, he screams* Curses! *and stamps his foot*?

Two reasons:

1) because it is ambiguous. Compare these two sentences:
- Slapping his face, he screams. "Curses," he says, and stamps his foot.
- Slapping his face, he screams, "Curses". He stamps his foot.

In the first, there is a scream and then he says "Curses". In the second, he screams the word curses, and that's it. You can't tell from your line which of these has happened.

2) because it is messy to read. Be honest - though perhaps you're all so used to reading Cantr-text that you find them the same - but which is easier to read?:
- psymann says: "*Slapping his face, he screams* Curses *and stamps his foot*"
- Slapping his face, psymann screams, "Curses," and stamps his foot.

Perhaps it's just that I'm used to the standard use of punctuation in English, but I find the second one far easier.


The dynamic name is done in this way: I would write:

"Slapping his face, <MY> screams, "Curses," and stamps his foot"

The dynamic description you have used for me would then appear on you screen. So I would see:
Slapping his face, psymann screams, "Curses," and stamps his foot
And you would see:
Slapping his face, that annoying twit screams, "Curses," and stamps his foot
(or something like that )


And if you didn't want to write in this way, you could just leave out the <MY> bit, and it would add "psymann says:" to the beginning of whatever you type (ie default to the current arrangement). That way everyone would be assured to have included their name.

psymann

[Nosajimiki]

1) most people wouldn't bother putting thier name into everything they say which would make following converstions and action a pain in the butt

2)using ** properly is more versital and clear than having a floating tag

both of these are ambiguious
- psymann says: "*Slapping his face, he screams* Curses *and stamps his foot*"
- Slapping his face, psymann screams, "Curses," and stamps his foot.

both of these are not.
psymann sais: "*slaps his face and screams 'curses!' and stamps his feet*"
or
psymann sais: "*slaps his face, screams, and stamps his feet* curses!"

This said, perhaps the opening tag just needs the word "sais" removed from it because not all communicated events are said

noasjimiki sais: "*yawns*"
becomes
nosajimiki: *yawns*

this way the kind of action is compleatly inffered by ** or not which is what is done anyway.

[Elros]

And if you didn't want to write in this way, you could just leave out the <MY> bit, and it would add "psymann says:" to the beginning of whatever you type (ie default to the current arrangement). That way everyone would be assured to have included their name.

I guess with this statement in mind it wouldn't be to bad of an idea. That way if you didn't want to mess with the whole thing you could just type like always, but if you ever wanted to have your name in the middle of the sentence you could. Also it would not be possible for someone to leave their name off of the post.

I would agree to the suggestion if it was set up like the statement you made above. However, I do not know how long it would be before it was implemented seeing that there are about 1000 more important things to be done right now than this.

[psymann]

Nosajimiki, yep, just removing the word "says" and the automatic inverted commas would improve things for me - for example the last thing my character did was totally silent, but yet they "said" it... Would be nice to be able just to use *...* for actions and "..." for speech at times of my choosing. I think I could get used to that.

I guess then I'd be happier compromising and using the stars-form of grammar. I still personally think it's clearer without, but I guess I'll just have to get use to it! Certainly your use of speech within a description is an intriguing method - speaking without speaking in a sort of way! Might try that...

*practises with his stars*

And maybe just removing the 'says:' and the auto-"" would be much easier to code, and would therefore get a higher entry on the To Do list, Elros?

*quietens down*

psymann

[Marian]

After a little while I think you'll find you don't even notice the 'says' part anymore...