Religion

[Nakranoth]

God doesn't end all the evilness in the world, because that's exactly why he gave us free will in the first place. Without evilness in the world, there would be no heaven nor hell. People have to do what's right in order to go to heaven, and in order for those people to be right, there has to be wrong in the world. God wants people to end the evilness themselves, or else how would He make them go to heaven?

That was a rather uneducated presumption... Where did God live before the fall of Satan and the existance of Hell? Heaven and Hell are not interdependent. Without evil, there is no Hell, however Heaven remains unchanged.

[saztronic]

God doesn't end all the evilness in the world, because that's exactly why he gave us free will in the first place. Without evilness in the world, there would be no heaven nor hell. People have to do what's right in order to go to heaven, and in order for those people to be right, there has to be wrong in the world. God wants people to end the evilness themselves, or else how would He make them go to heaven?

It's not uneducated, Nakranoth, it's just missing the point -- as is Mafia Salad. Dee, I understand that this is how a lot of religious people, Christian and Muslim, see things. Let me try to repeat a couple of points in a different way.

You're right that without evil, there would be no heaven and hell; there would be no need for them. If Lucifer had never turned from God's will, there would be no hell. But he did. And then God created the world, and now more people go to hell than go to heaven by most religious peoples' estimates. Hell: a place of eternal suffering and unimaginable torture.

My question: Does the "good" of 1,000 people going to heaven justify the "evil" of 1,000,000 going to hell? Or even: would the eternal suffering and torture of one child morally justify a creation where everybody else got to go to heaven?

I don't think it would. The whole concept is morally flawed. It's not enough to say that God allows evil so that people can go to heaven, because that means that God also allows people to go to hell. Nothing happens without God's will. Nothing. What all-loving, all-powerful being would consign creatures he supposedly loves to an eternity of pain and suffering? That's not a kind of love I want to get anywhere close to, thanks anyway. Go love somebody else, God.

Love is about mercy, generosity, compassion.

No one who loves you, no matter what terrible things you did, would punish you forever, without hope of redemption or release. How is that love? How is that good?

And if it was impossible to create a world where heaven was possible, without allowing evil and hell to exist also, then what kind of all-loving, all-powerful God would create that world in the first place?

[Dee]

No one who loves you, no matter what terrible things you did, would punish you forever, without hope of redemption or release. How is that love? How is that good?

Exactly. You said it.

Say, if you have kids, and one of those kids is always not listening to you, no matter what you say. He always lies and does everything you don't like behind your back. Or he thinks he's doing all the stuff behind your back, let's suppose that you know what he does. And you tried a lot to lead him to the right way, and you repeatedly told him and asked him to respect you and obey, but he still doesn't. Then, would you still love him?

I mean, sure, he's your kid and all, but would you still love him as your other good kids? Definetley not.

Did you get my point? I hope you did... Sorry about my not so good english.. I would have explained more if it was in my native language.

[Nakranoth]

Dee, you're trying to put God into human concepts. God's supposed to be all powerful and all loveing. God might be completely distressed about our state of life, but no matter what we do, We're each like his only child. He's got no choice but to love us anyway... If hell exists, and God is what we say God is, we condemn ourselves.

[saztronic]

No one who loves you, no matter what terrible things you did, would punish you forever, without hope of redemption or release. How is that love? How is that good?

Exactly. You said it.

Say, if you have kids, and one of those kids is always not listening to you, no matter what you say. He always lies and does everything you don't like behind your back. Or he thinks he's doing all the stuff behind your back, let's suppose that you know what he does. And you tried a lot to lead him to the right way, and you repeatedly told him and asked him to respect you and obey, but he still doesn't. Then, would you still love him?

I mean, sure, he's your kid and all, but would you still love him as your other good kids? Definetley not.

Did you get my point? I hope you did... Sorry about my not so good english.. I would have explained more if it was in my native language.

So Dee... just trying to understand you. Are you saying that God loves good people more than he loves evil people? Because that seems completely the opposite of every description I've ever heard of the Jewish and Christian and Muslim (and Mormon) God.

Even Jewish people, who consider themselves God's chosen race, don't think that God actually loves them more than Gentiles -- only that they have a special relationship, or covenant, with God.

Anyway... To answer your illustration... Even if I had a bad kid who didn't respect me, did bad things, whatever... I doubt I would think it was a good idea to roast him in burning hot flames and cause him agonizing pain and suffering and despair without end. But hey, I'm not God, maybe he's got more time on his hands and a different idea about how things are done than I do. Maybe he enjoys treating a lot of the people he created like marshmallows over a campfire. Forever.

[Hannibal The Imbecile 15]

Aww stuff it all of ya.

[Nosajimiki]

No, it’s not a bad analogy because God does not set our morals. The fact that we have some control in our choices and how our character shapes out sets us apart from the rest of nature. We’re not entirely driven by instinct, we play a big part in determining who we are.

But God choose to make us without moral predisposision, so why would he do this if he wanted what was best for us? If we were created sufficent to be good on our own, even if we were free to sin, that would be one thing, but according to Jesus, the only way to Heaven is through him which is to say we were not created with the abaility to always choose to do right and that our own personal dessisions are not sufficent to save us; thierfore, our free will only serves to damn us to suffering. How is our free will, the way that he gave it too us, a sign of beinevolence if it only serves to harm us?

Aww stuff it all of ya.

wow Hannibal, that was an... enlightening arguement...

[formerly known as hf]

Considering that God doesn't exist, this discussion is all a bit moot really...

[Nalaris]

No one who loves you, no matter what terrible things you did, would punish you forever, without hope of redemption or release. How is that love? How is that good?

Exactly. You said it.

Say, if you have kids, and one of those kids is always not listening to you, no matter what you say. He always lies and does everything you don't like behind your back. Or he thinks he's doing all the stuff behind your back, let's suppose that you know what he does. And you tried a lot to lead him to the right way, and you repeatedly told him and asked him to respect you and obey, but he still doesn't. Then, would you still love him?

I mean, sure, he's your kid and all, but would you still love him as your other good kids? Definetley not.

Did you get my point? I hope you did... Sorry about my not so good english.. I would have explained more if it was in my native language.

It was clear enough for me to know it was wrong. God loves all his children equally, whether or not they believe in him. He only punishes those who believe in him, acknowledge the belief, and still work against Him. Everyone else, he may not reward as richly, but he will not punish you for being mislead. He will not even punish you for hurting people, no matter how bad, as long as they are not aware, or do not believe in the consequences. Sometimes I think He's being too lenient, but He's been right everytime before, so I'll trust Him now(after all, I owe Him everything). Of course, one of the worse parts of the lesser kingdoms of glory is that you can see the greater ones.

[Dee]

That's so wrong! Or at least that's so not what I believe in... And therefore I believe it's so wrong.

My God, this thread is such a waste of time... I say the same things over and over again and you people don't even want to listen... There's no point in posting here.

This is like my 100th time to say that, I know

[deadboy]

That thing about god punishing people, I'm just going to take a snippet (Although I cannot remember the quotes) from The Tragicall Histories of Doctor Faustus, by Marlow. In it he says that hell is not something physical, or physical torment, which I think is about right, as as spirits I doubt we can feel physical pain, and that hell is knowing that you could've been with the ultimate perfection, but you have to spend eternity without him.

I think this seems to be along the right lines

[Nakranoth]

That's so wrong! Or at least that's so not what I believe in... And therefore I believe it's so wrong.

My God, this thread is such a waste of time... I say the same things over and over again and you people don't even want to listen... There's no point in posting here.

This is like my 100th time to say that, I know

I don't know about everyone else, but I listen. How else would I be able to argue against what you're saying?

[Nosajimiki]

It's okay Dee, I'm sure you feel ignored becasue others can not or do not see things from your point of view, but everyone on this thread gets that.

If it is your intention to change other's views here, then yes, you are waisting your time, but if your are here to learn what other people believe, see how faiths contrast eachother and what motivates various systems of though, or if it helps reinforce your own faith, then i think it is a very personally bienificial thread. Even if it has no ramifications on your own perspective of God, by listening to what motivates others you can at very least get a new perspective on mankind.

[Dee]

To be honest it is my intention to change your point of view

In fact, if I'm here to just listen to what you believe in, and watch you arguing and going no where, then this thread is pointless. But if we come out of it with something benefecial, then it's worth the time I wasted on it.

If anyone is interested, I have an e-book that has answers some of the usually unanswered questions about islam. If you would like to read it, let me know and I would send it to you by e-mail. You can PM with your e-mail if you would like.

[Nalaris]

I did take a serious look at Islam as the potential truth. But the extremely bad feeling I got while praying about the subject was answer enough for me. If that was 'just me' I would've felt it the minute I started considering it, not just when I started praying about it.

Dee, what if you weren't born into a Muslim family? What if you were born somewhere in China, approximately AD 170, you never knew Islam, lived a good life anyway, and got raped and killed when your village got massacred by Dong Zhuo's soldiers in the late 180's? And then you got sent to Hell because you weren't a Muslim? Is that fair? Is that right, to live a good life despite being poor, to be horribly abused and then killed and then find out that your reward for helping those in need was eternal Damnation because you weren't part of this or that specific religion?