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- Nosajimiki
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Matthew 21:18, Jesus did curse the fig tree
And just because Jesus went through with his fate does not mean that he believed in it 100%. plenty of human Martrs have faced thier fates with much more resolve than Jesus did, not even wanting thier burdens to be lifed, so why would God himself if God is more perfect than man. Even in a human body, he should have been more perfect than any other martr could be, but he faultered. He claimed to have the faith to move mountains, but he could barely drag his own cross.
And just because Jesus went through with his fate does not mean that he believed in it 100%. plenty of human Martrs have faced thier fates with much more resolve than Jesus did, not even wanting thier burdens to be lifed, so why would God himself if God is more perfect than man. Even in a human body, he should have been more perfect than any other martr could be, but he faultered. He claimed to have the faith to move mountains, but he could barely drag his own cross.
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- formerly known as hf
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- Location: UK
mmm... figs...
Elros: When I said 'you can believe in the bible and...' I was replying to pie, who said you cannot believe in, or have read the Bible and commit murder/rape etc.
Which is a dumb statement, which required a dumb rebuttal.
How?
So different, that it wasn't a sin?
How can slavery ever not be condemnable?
And as for 'servants' - that is a recent passage. Your much quoted 'sociological' evidence will attest that servants, in our known sense, didn;t exist - wherever it says 'servants' in a Bible translation, it more accurately means slaves...
Elros:
Slavery is not, anywhere, condemned or deemed sinful in the Bible.
The Old and New testaments are both full of rules and regulations - if it is so bad, why reulate it, why not condem it?
You cannot 'wash away' radio carbon evidence. Some fossils preserve the organic matter - which contains carbon - which can be dated - and has been.
Yes. soil in a jar will sort itself into density. But for there to have been enough earthquakes for thousands of meteres of soils to 'be shaken' into density - nothing would have survived.
Evolution is the result of a hundred years of careful scrutiny, analysis, research etc etc.
There are 'some' sceptical cases - but the thousands. And thousands. And thousands of fossils far outweigh a few uncertainties.
You'll have known, if you'd bother to check up, that the dating for those footprints was re-checked. The human footprint is known to be only a thousand or so years old - they were made at the same place, but at vastly different times.
The first, the one I know more about, is used for ice cores.
As ice freezes, it captures very tiny pockets of air.
So, as you drill down, you will reach ice which froze millions of years ago.
The dating is based on Oxygen and Hydrogen isotopes - that's Hydrogen and Oxygen atoms which have slightly different numbers of electrons than a neutral state.
These isotopes are known to change over time, in specific ways - this can be used to date ice cores.
You can also count 'rings' of ice cores fairly accurately too.
How do you explain fossils found frozen in ice, when the ice is aged at over 4 million years old?
Radio carbon dating is the other method. This requires organic material to be available. Whilst fossils are often solid mineral deposits, and there is no organic amtter left, there are some times when there is organic matter to be analysed.
Carbon dating also relies upon isotopes, this time studying the unstable Carbon-14 isotope.
If left alone, Carbon-14 will slowly decay into a more stable isotope. There would be none on Earh if it was not for the effect of the sun on Nitrogen (I can't remember the forula off-hand)
Every living creature and plant contains carbon - plants absrob it from the atmospehere, creatures eat plant and each other.
When organic matter dies, that Carbon-14 starts to decay. There is no absorption form the atmosphere, so it will eventually completely disappear.
The time it takes for C-14 to decay is well-known. Thus, by measuring the level of Carbon-14 isotope in organic matter, the age since death can be established.
Furthermore. Evolution can be observed. There have been numerous studies on microbial lifeforms and even mayflys and such, which show evolution.
How do you think bacteria become immune to certain antibitoics, if it is not for the process of evoltuon?
Evolution is not a theory, it is not conjecture, it is observable, proovable fact.
Elros: When I said 'you can believe in the bible and...' I was replying to pie, who said you cannot believe in, or have read the Bible and commit murder/rape etc.
Which is a dumb statement, which required a dumb rebuttal.
Different?pie wrote:Slavery was differen't in apostle pauls time.
How?
So different, that it wasn't a sin?
How can slavery ever not be condemnable?
And as for 'servants' - that is a recent passage. Your much quoted 'sociological' evidence will attest that servants, in our known sense, didn;t exist - wherever it says 'servants' in a Bible translation, it more accurately means slaves...
Elros:
Slavery is not, anywhere, condemned or deemed sinful in the Bible.
The Old and New testaments are both full of rules and regulations - if it is so bad, why reulate it, why not condem it?
Paul, telling slaves to be good and serve their master... PLays right into the hands of slave owners...Ephesians 6:5-9: wrote:Servants, be obedient to them that are your masters according to the flesh, with fear and trembling, in singleness of your heart, as unto Christ; Not with eyeservice, as menpleasers; but as the servants of Christ, doing the will of God from the heart; With good will doing service, as to the Lord, and not to men: Knowing that whatsoever good thing any man doeth, the same shall he receive of the Lord, whether he be bond or free. And, ye masters, do the same things unto them, forbearing threatening: knowing that your Master also is in heaven; neither is there respect of persons with him.
I'm going to start of by assuming you have no knowledge of the physical science behind fossil dating. Which is clear from that statement.pie wrote:Also, evolution is mostly conjectures, with the fossil records that do not prove anything, becaus if there was this world whide flood, as I believe so, than all that radio carbon would have been washed away frome most fossils.
You cannot 'wash away' radio carbon evidence. Some fossils preserve the organic matter - which contains carbon - which can be dated - and has been.
Again, clearly no understanding of elementary geology.Also, fossilisation requires water, or some sort of pressure, and a layer of silt. two posibal answers for that. Being covord in water (wich discredets it's age) or being covored in lava. ANd that whole, layer theory that they have, that this is this age caus it was found this far deep... well, it is really... it dosen't prove much. Becaus of all the floods, and river changes, and earthquakes, and mudslides, and rain, and volcanoes, and that one thing, that one experement if you put different types of soil together in a jar, shake them up, and then let it sit for a wile... it will just form back into different layers of the density of the soil that it is.
Yes. soil in a jar will sort itself into density. But for there to have been enough earthquakes for thousands of meteres of soils to 'be shaken' into density - nothing would have survived.
You make it sound like a scientific theory is something people think up after a night-out.So, you have a theory, and another theory, wich you try to prove by measuring the time of the fossils, with something that is just a theory, and all the proof is just theoretical, and it dosen't match up with alot of the spetial cases that we have
Evolution is the result of a hundred years of careful scrutiny, analysis, research etc etc.
There are 'some' sceptical cases - but the thousands. And thousands. And thousands of fossils far outweigh a few uncertainties.
I know the example you bring up here.(such as that fosilised footprint of human and dinosour beside each other, or that human head dated (strangely) to be about 3 million, or whatever, years old.) and these cases cannot just be thrown out, as outliers, becaus they don't dissagree with any of the other fossil records that we have (and you really can't dissagree with a record of fossils anyway) and they only disagree with a theory... soo...
You'll have known, if you'd bother to check up, that the dating for those footprints was re-checked. The human footprint is known to be only a thousand or so years old - they were made at the same place, but at vastly different times.
There are two methods.and pleas, once again, find me the dating system that they use for dinosoures and the like.
The first, the one I know more about, is used for ice cores.
As ice freezes, it captures very tiny pockets of air.
So, as you drill down, you will reach ice which froze millions of years ago.
The dating is based on Oxygen and Hydrogen isotopes - that's Hydrogen and Oxygen atoms which have slightly different numbers of electrons than a neutral state.
These isotopes are known to change over time, in specific ways - this can be used to date ice cores.
You can also count 'rings' of ice cores fairly accurately too.
How do you explain fossils found frozen in ice, when the ice is aged at over 4 million years old?
Radio carbon dating is the other method. This requires organic material to be available. Whilst fossils are often solid mineral deposits, and there is no organic amtter left, there are some times when there is organic matter to be analysed.
Carbon dating also relies upon isotopes, this time studying the unstable Carbon-14 isotope.
If left alone, Carbon-14 will slowly decay into a more stable isotope. There would be none on Earh if it was not for the effect of the sun on Nitrogen (I can't remember the forula off-hand)
Every living creature and plant contains carbon - plants absrob it from the atmospehere, creatures eat plant and each other.
When organic matter dies, that Carbon-14 starts to decay. There is no absorption form the atmosphere, so it will eventually completely disappear.
The time it takes for C-14 to decay is well-known. Thus, by measuring the level of Carbon-14 isotope in organic matter, the age since death can be established.
Furthermore. Evolution can be observed. There have been numerous studies on microbial lifeforms and even mayflys and such, which show evolution.
How do you think bacteria become immune to certain antibitoics, if it is not for the process of evoltuon?
Evolution is not a theory, it is not conjecture, it is observable, proovable fact.
Whoever you vote for.
The government wins.
The government wins.
- saztronic
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Nosajimiki wrote:Matthew 21:18, Jesus did curse the fig tree
hf wrote:="Ephesians 6:5-9"]Servants, be obedient to them that are your masters according to the flesh, with fear and trembling, in singleness of your heart, as unto Christ; Not with eyeservice, as menpleasers; but as the servants of Christ, doing the will of God from the heart; With good will doing service, as to the Lord, and not to men: Knowing that whatsoever good thing any man doeth, the same shall he receive of the Lord, whether he be bond or free. And, ye masters, do the same things unto them, forbearing threatening: knowing that your Master also is in heaven; neither is there respect of persons with him.
As many have said before me, Elros, and as you prove often, you don't know the Bible as well as you claim to. Jesus did curse the fig tree, at the passage mentioned. Paul did discuss slavery in a context that very much indicates he finds it appropriate, even going so far as to specify what constitutes good behavior on the part of slaves.
And Jonah cursed a grape vine, not a fig tree. And he didn't cause it to wither, either. God did that, using a worm. Jonah 4.
I kill threads. It's what I do.
- Elros
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- Location: South Carolina, USA
Nosajimiki wrote:Matthew 21:18, Jesus did curse the fig tree
And just because Jesus went through with his fate does not mean that he believed in it 100%. plenty of human Martrs have faced thier fates with much more resolve than Jesus did, not even wanting thier burdens to be lifed, so why would God himself if God is more perfect than man. Even in a human body, he should have been more perfect than any other martr could be, but he faultered. He claimed to have the faith to move mountains, but he could barely drag his own cross.
He was not like other Martyrs who just lost their lives. He was no afarid of dying, he know he would ressurect. Picture this for a second:
Since eternity past Jesus has always been with God the Father. They are seperate but the same also. The have had fellowship and love one for the other for eternity. Jesus knew that night that for the first time in all of eternity, God the father would despise him and turn his head away from him when he would be made sin. Jesus did NOT want to feel something like that, and on top of that he did not want to go thru being made sin, something that had never happened to him in all of eterinty. That is why he said if there was any other way for him to save the people of the earth than he would rather do it.
Every action has a consequence.
- Elros
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HF wrote:Ephesians 6:5-9: wrote:
Servants, be obedient to them that are your masters according to the flesh, with fear and trembling, in singleness of your heart, as unto Christ; Not with eyeservice, as menpleasers; but as the servants of Christ, doing the will of God from the heart; With good will doing service, as to the Lord, and not to men: Knowing that whatsoever good thing any man doeth, the same shall he receive of the Lord, whether he be bond or free. And, ye masters, do the same things unto them, forbearing threatening: knowing that your Master also is in heaven; neither is there respect of persons with him.
Paul, telling slaves to be good and serve their master... PLays right into the hands of slave owners...
Paul was not telling them in any case that slavery was right or wrong. All he was doing in his passage was telling them to make the best out of their situation that they could. In fact he was not even dealing with the slavery issue at all, because he said "bond or free". He was talking to servants in general, wether they were hired or slaved.
But what I had asked saztronic, was to backup his statement in the Bible where he said that Paul encouraged slavery. The above passage does no such thing.
Every action has a consequence.
- Elros
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- Location: South Carolina, USA
The Bible wrote:Mathew 21: 18-19
Now in the morning as he returned into the city, he hungered.
And when he saw a fig tree in the way, he came to it, and found nothing thereon, but leaves only, and said unto it, Let no fruit grow on thee henceforward for ever. And presently the fig tree withered away.
Um.... I wouldnt call that getting angry and cursing.
Also if you read in the next few verses it was just I a sign he was showing to the disciples:
The Bible wrote:Mathew 21:20-22
And when the disciples saw it, they marvelled, saying, How soon is the fig tree withered away!
Jesus answered and said unto them, Verily I say unto you, If ye have faith, and doubt not, ye shall not only do this which is done to the fig tree, but also if ye shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; it shall be done.
And all things, whatsoever ye shall ask in prayer, believing, ye shall receive.
Every action has a consequence.
- saztronic
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Elros wrote:HF wrote:Ephesians 6:5-9: wrote:
Servants, be obedient to them that are your masters according to the flesh, with fear and trembling, in singleness of your heart, as unto Christ; Not with eyeservice, as menpleasers; but as the servants of Christ, doing the will of God from the heart; With good will doing service, as to the Lord, and not to men: Knowing that whatsoever good thing any man doeth, the same shall he receive of the Lord, whether he be bond or free. And, ye masters, do the same things unto them, forbearing threatening: knowing that your Master also is in heaven; neither is there respect of persons with him.
Paul, telling slaves to be good and serve their master... PLays right into the hands of slave owners...
Paul was not telling them in any case that slavery was right or wrong. All he was doing in his passage was telling them to make the best out of their situation that they could. In fact he was not even dealing with the slavery issue at all, because he said "bond or free". He was talking to servants in general, wether they were hired or slaved.
But what I had asked saztronic, was to backup his statement in the Bible where he said that Paul encouraged slavery. The above passage does no such thing.
Your interpretation of the passage on slavery is disingenuous.
Paul says that whatever good things a man does, he shall receive the same from the Lord, be he bond or free. He also says that those who are bond -- i.e., slaves -- should be as obedient to their masters as if their masters were Christ -- as servants of Christ, doing the will of God from the heart.
In other words, if you're a slave, you owe obedience to your master, as you owe obedience to Christ. Your narrow point is that Paul is not actively advocating for slavery here, and to the extent that this point is any way relevant, it's true -- there's no sin of commission here. But by accepting slavery, and beyond that, describing a code of proper behavior for slaves that includes obedience and submission to their masters, Paul is tacitly condoning the practice of slavery and admonishing slaves themselves that being uppity or rebellious in any way would be explicitly contrary to God's will, and antithetical to Christ-like behavior. This is a sin of omission, if you agree that slavery is evil and condemnable. Perhaps you don't.
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- saztronic
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Elros wrote:The Bible wrote:Mathew 21: 18-19
Now in the morning as he returned into the city, he hungered.
And when he saw a fig tree in the way, he came to it, and found nothing thereon, but leaves only, and said unto it, Let no fruit grow on thee henceforward for ever. And presently the fig tree withered away.
Um.... I wouldnt call that getting angry and cursing.
OK, so he wasn't angry. He killed the fig tree out of love, patience, and compassion.
Elros wrote:Also if you read in the next few verses it was just I a sign he was showing to the disciples:The Bible wrote:Mathew 21:20-22
And when the disciples saw it, they marvelled, saying, How soon is the fig tree withered away!
Jesus answered and said unto them, Verily I say unto you, If ye have faith, and doubt not, ye shall not only do this which is done to the fig tree, but also if ye shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; it shall be done.
And all things, whatsoever ye shall ask in prayer, believing, ye shall receive.
Neat. Next time I clearcut a pristine forest, I'll just turn to the people behind me and say "See what you can do if you just put your mind to it? With God on our side, we'll have the whole friggin' rain forest destroyed in just a matter of weeks. Faith: It's an amazing thing."
Good lesson.
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- Pie
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formerly known as hf wrote:mmm... figs...
Elros: When I said 'you can believe in the bible and...' I was replying to pie, who said you cannot believe in, or have read the Bible and commit murder/rape etc.
Which is a dumb statement, which required a dumb rebuttal.Different?pie wrote:Slavery was differen't in apostle pauls time.
How?
So different, that it wasn't a sin?
How can slavery ever not be condemnable?
And as for 'servants' - that is a recent passage. Your much quoted 'sociological' evidence will attest that servants, in our known sense, didn;t exist - wherever it says 'servants' in a Bible translation, it more accurately means slaves...
Elros:
Slavery is not, anywhere, condemned or deemed sinful in the Bible.
The Old and New testaments are both full of rules and regulations - if it is so bad, why reulate it, why not condem it?Paul, telling slaves to be good and serve their master... PLays right into the hands of slave owners...Ephesians 6:5-9: wrote:Servants, be obedient to them that are your masters according to the flesh, with fear and trembling, in singleness of your heart, as unto Christ; Not with eyeservice, as menpleasers; but as the servants of Christ, doing the will of God from the heart; With good will doing service, as to the Lord, and not to men: Knowing that whatsoever good thing any man doeth, the same shall he receive of the Lord, whether he be bond or free. And, ye masters, do the same things unto them, forbearing threatening: knowing that your Master also is in heaven; neither is there respect of persons with him.I'm going to start of by assuming you have no knowledge of the physical science behind fossil dating. Which is clear from that statement.pie wrote:Also, evolution is mostly conjectures, with the fossil records that do not prove anything, becaus if there was this world whide flood, as I believe so, than all that radio carbon would have been washed away frome most fossils.
You cannot 'wash away' radio carbon evidence. Some fossils preserve the organic matter - which contains carbon - which can be dated - and has been.Again, clearly no understanding of elementary geology.Also, fossilisation requires water, or some sort of pressure, and a layer of silt. two posibal answers for that. Being covord in water (wich discredets it's age) or being covored in lava. ANd that whole, layer theory that they have, that this is this age caus it was found this far deep... well, it is really... it dosen't prove much. Becaus of all the floods, and river changes, and earthquakes, and mudslides, and rain, and volcanoes, and that one thing, that one experement if you put different types of soil together in a jar, shake them up, and then let it sit for a wile... it will just form back into different layers of the density of the soil that it is.
Yes. soil in a jar will sort itself into density. But for there to have been enough earthquakes for thousands of meteres of soils to 'be shaken' into density - nothing would have survived.You make it sound like a scientific theory is something people think up after a night-out.So, you have a theory, and another theory, wich you try to prove by measuring the time of the fossils, with something that is just a theory, and all the proof is just theoretical, and it dosen't match up with alot of the spetial cases that we have
Evolution is the result of a hundred years of careful scrutiny, analysis, research etc etc.
There are 'some' sceptical cases - but the thousands. And thousands. And thousands of fossils far outweigh a few uncertainties.I know the example you bring up here.(such as that fosilised footprint of human and dinosour beside each other, or that human head dated (strangely) to be about 3 million, or whatever, years old.) and these cases cannot just be thrown out, as outliers, becaus they don't dissagree with any of the other fossil records that we have (and you really can't dissagree with a record of fossils anyway) and they only disagree with a theory... soo...
You'll have known, if you'd bother to check up, that the dating for those footprints was re-checked. The human footprint is known to be only a thousand or so years old - they were made at the same place, but at vastly different times.There are two methods.and pleas, once again, find me the dating system that they use for dinosoures and the like.
The first, the one I know more about, is used for ice cores.
As ice freezes, it captures very tiny pockets of air.
So, as you drill down, you will reach ice which froze millions of years ago.
The dating is based on Oxygen and Hydrogen isotopes - that's Hydrogen and Oxygen atoms which have slightly different numbers of electrons than a neutral state.
These isotopes are known to change over time, in specific ways - this can be used to date ice cores.
You can also count 'rings' of ice cores fairly accurately too.
How do you explain fossils found frozen in ice, when the ice is aged at over 4 million years old?
Radio carbon dating is the other method. This requires organic material to be available. Whilst fossils are often solid mineral deposits, and there is no organic amtter left, there are some times when there is organic matter to be analysed.
Carbon dating also relies upon isotopes, this time studying the unstable Carbon-14 isotope.
If left alone, Carbon-14 will slowly decay into a more stable isotope. There would be none on Earh if it was not for the effect of the sun on Nitrogen (I can't remember the forula off-hand)
Every living creature and plant contains carbon - plants absrob it from the atmospehere, creatures eat plant and each other.
When organic matter dies, that Carbon-14 starts to decay. There is no absorption form the atmosphere, so it will eventually completely disappear.
The time it takes for C-14 to decay is well-known. Thus, by measuring the level of Carbon-14 isotope in organic matter, the age since death can be established.
Furthermore. Evolution can be observed. There have been numerous studies on microbial lifeforms and even mayflys and such, which show evolution.
How do you think bacteria become immune to certain antibitoics, if it is not for the process of evoltuon?
Evolution is not a theory, it is not conjecture, it is observable, proovable fact.
Alrighty. Slavery was differen't as in it didn't discriminate between race. and now, since I have reached my limit of knowlage on this subject, i will use google.
http://www.christian-thinktank.com/qnoslave.html
And now i must go. I will comment on this later.
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- formerly known as hf
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So, Elros, you have the one-and-only true interpretation of the BIble?Elros wrote:HF wrote:Ephesians 6:5-9: wrote:
Servants, be obedient to them that are your masters according to the flesh, with fear and trembling, in singleness of your heart, as unto Christ; Not with eyeservice, as menpleasers; but as the servants of Christ, doing the will of God from the heart; With good will doing service, as to the Lord, and not to men: Knowing that whatsoever good thing any man doeth, the same shall he receive of the Lord, whether he be bond or free. And, ye masters, do the same things unto them, forbearing threatening: knowing that your Master also is in heaven; neither is there respect of persons with him.
Paul, telling slaves to be good and serve their master... PLays right into the hands of slave owners...
Paul was not telling them in any case that slavery was right or wrong. All he was doing in his passage was telling them to make the best out of their situation that they could. In fact he was not even dealing with the slavery issue at all, because he said "bond or free". He was talking to servants in general, wether they were hired or slaved.
But what I had asked saztronic, was to backup his statement in the Bible where he said that Paul encouraged slavery. The above passage does no such thing.
You read that, and what you see it as is the truth?
I read that, and it sounds to me like Paul is saying that slaves and servants should treat their masters like Christ / God.
Now, to me, that's not encouraging it - but it sure is not condeming it...
In the hands of others, it could easily been seen as encouraging - that passage is a (literal, if you're one of those who see the Bible as God's word thorugh man) godsend to slave owners... Treat me like God 'cos Paul said so...
That's just one example of many. The Bible is so easily interpreted to justify anything - you may feel you have the 'right' interpretation - but then so do those who use the Bible to justify other things...
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One thing I like best of all is when arguments are presented in clear logical fashion and bring up points that at the VERY least need to be addressed, they are either ignored entirely or answered with irrelevant or already-answered points. And that is why this thread makes me so very very happy.
I'm not dead; I'm dormant.
- formerly known as hf
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We all...west wrote:One thing I like best of all is when arguments are presented in clear logical fashion and bring up points that at the VERY least need to be addressed, they are either ignored entirely or answered with irrelevant or already-answered points. And that is why this thread makes me so very very happy.
At least I hope we all...
Realise this thread has been a farce since the first page...
No one's actually taking any of this seriously, are they?
Whoever you vote for.
The government wins.
The government wins.
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Spartacus tried to start a slave rebellion. He succeeded in starting it. He and six thousand of his comrades died of crucifixtion. At the time, the Roman Empire was too strong, but God knew that it would be destroyed by barbarians eventually. A revolt against an Empire that strong was simply foolish, a waste of lives. Besides that, havoc and discord are God's enemies: he likes order. Preferably a benevolent, kind order, like the one he intends to set up eventually. But better the Roman Empire than Feudal Europe.
Paul is not specifically saying 'slavery is great!', he's just saying 'slavery is better than death!'. Of course, I don't know positively. But it does make sense.
Paul is not specifically saying 'slavery is great!', he's just saying 'slavery is better than death!'. Of course, I don't know positively. But it does make sense.
- saztronic
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Nalaris wrote:Spartacus tried to start a slave rebellion. He succeeded in starting it. He and six thousand of his comrades died of crucifixtion. At the time, the Roman Empire was too strong, but God knew that it would be destroyed by barbarians eventually. A revolt against an Empire that strong was simply foolish, a waste of lives. Besides that, havoc and discord are God's enemies: he likes order. Preferably a benevolent, kind order, like the one he intends to set up eventually. But better the Roman Empire than Feudal Europe.
Paul is not specifically saying 'slavery is great!', he's just saying 'slavery is better than death!'. Of course, I don't know positively. But it does make sense.
Hitler liked order. So did Stalin. Were they God's friends?
Chaos is not inherently God's enemy. Much of the nature God created depends on it. Order is not inherently God's friend. Evil can often be quite orderly.
"Slavery is better than death!" -- You ascribe that sentence to God, and use it to defend Paul? I am completely nonplussed.

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- Pie
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west wrote:One thing I like best of all is when arguments are presented in clear logical fashion and bring up points that at the VERY least need to be addressed, they are either ignored entirely or answered with irrelevant or already-answered points. And that is why this thread makes me so very very happy.
Really? It makes me frustrated when it happenes.
Pnumerical Intuitiong Engyn
Paranormal Investigation Exorsism
Porcupine Interspecies Extra_poison
Pick In Enter
... The headquarters of P.I.E.!!!
Paranormal Investigation Exorsism
Porcupine Interspecies Extra_poison
Pick In Enter
... The headquarters of P.I.E.!!!
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