Religion

[Elros]

and Joseph Mormon was/was not a pretty obvious fraud.

Um... I think you mean Joseph Smith, who was the founder of the Mormons, and supposedly saw Jesus ect...

Yes he was a fraud. He was a fraud because of the following verse in the KJV, which the Mormons belive to be completely true. They use the KJV along side the Book of Mormons. Here is the verse:

I Corinthians 15:8
And last of all he(speaking of Jesus christ) was seen of me(Paul the Apostle) also, as of one born out of due time.

So if paul was the last one to see Jesus according to the Bible(which they use and belive), then how could Joseph Smith not be a fraud?

[west]

and Joseph Mormon was/was not a pretty obvious fraud.

Um... I think you mean Joseph Smith, who was the founder of the Mormons, and supposedly saw Jesus ect...

Yes he was a fraud. He was a fraud because of the following verse in the KJV, which the Mormons belive to be completely true. They use the KJV along side the Book of Mormons. Here is the verse:

I Corinthians 15:8
And last of all he(speaking of Jesus christ) was seen of me(Paul the Apostle) also, as of one born out of due time.

So if paul was the last one to see Jesus according to the Bible(which they use and belive), then how could Joseph Smith not be a fraud?

I did mean Joseph Smith, the mormon dude, but I meant the whole golden tablets thing.

But here's something, and I hate to be arguing for the other side (although I'd like to think that the only side I'm arguing for is for logic and sense):

Let's see if I understand your argument.

C. AD 35: Paul sees whatever he saw that made him convert (Jesus?)

Somewhere between then and AD 90: He writes that nobody's seen Jesus since he's seen Jesus.

Early 1800s: Joseph Smith Jr. sees Jesus.

Now, I ain't a scientist, but it seems to me that there ain't a problem with that.

If we're looking for Pie, and I ask you at 3:15 where Pie is, and you say "yeah, I saw him last; it was at about 2:30" that is great. You were the last person to see Pie. But if I ask Nalaris at 9pm, and Nalaris saw Pie at 7:30, obviously HE was the last person to see Pie. That doesn't mean you were wrong when you said you were the last person to see him when you said it at 3:15. It just means someone's seen him since you said that.

So. What's the problem?

I have plenty of other problems with, well, pretty much everything, but that there doesn't seem to be a good argument. Sorry boyo.

[Nosajimiki]

Also, God constantly yabbers on about not worshiping any other, or any false 'gods'. How can there be any other gods, if God also says 'I am the one and only God'? Isn't that a bit of a contradiction. What, or who, are these other gods? Something made up by people? A super-intelligent extra terrestrial life-form that previously visited our planet? An alien life-form created by God to test us?

This is so simple it isn't even funny. Other "false gods" is reffering to Idols that humans make and worship. False gods can also be characters of nature like the Sun or Moon, or Cows(like in India). In other words anything that humans try to serve besides the one true God are false gods. Flase meaning they are NOT real. Thus, there is only "1" God. 1 verse that describes this is the following. And as always, there are many more that do, but here is just one of them:

Exodus 20:
3. Thou shalt have no other gods before me.

4. Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.

5. Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;

6. And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.

Jewdaism was originally polytheistic, Elohim<sp> "the most high" or "mountain god" was his original name before Yahweh, the god of Abraham existed as a Zuze like figure to the Jews whom they worshiped above all other Gods. At the time of Moses, the Jews were still politheistic. When Moses asked for the name of the god who was sending him to Egypt, he asked that because he wanted to know which god was sending him because to his understanding there was more than one god. At the time the 10 commandments were written (or given to the Jews, how ever you view it), polithiesm was still primarly accepted, thus it's wording, but as a result of the commandments, the Jews over time not only stoped worshiping other gods, but began to belive that they did not exist.

If you read these passages carefuly you'll notice that God does not say that other gods do not exist, only that they should not be worshiped because he is A jealous god.

[Elros]

Jewdaism was originally polytheistic, Elohim<sp> "the most high" or "mountain god" was his original name before Yahweh, the god of Abraham existed as a Zuze like figure to the Jews whom they worshiped above all other Gods. At the time of Moses, the Jews were still politheistic. When Moses asked for the name of the god who was sending him to Egypt, he asked that because he wanted to know which god was sending him because to his understanding there was more than one god. At the time the 10 commandments were written (or given to the Jews, how ever you view it), polithiesm was still primarly accepted, thus it's wording, but as a result of the commandments, the Jews over time not only stoped worshiping other gods, but began to belive that they did not exist.

If you read these passages carefuly you'll notice that God does not say that other gods do not exist, only that they should not be worshiped because he is A jealous god.

Ok first of all, just because tmany Jews thought that there was more than one God means nothing. Today many people believe there is no God, or many Gods, but that doesn't have anything to do with the fact that there is only one God. Just because some of the Jews didn't believe the truth, doesn't mean that the truth is wrong. There will always be some that will not believe the truth.

Here is a verse that says it pretty simply. There are a good amount of other too, but this is just one of them.

Ephisians 4:
4. There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;

5. One Lord, one faith, one baptism,

6. One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

[Nosajimiki]

I Corinthians 15:8
And last of all he(speaking of Jesus christ) was seen of me(Paul the Apostle) also, as of one born out of due time.

So if paul was the last one to see Jesus according to the Bible(which they use and belive), then how could Joseph Smith not be a fraud?

"last" does not nessissarly infer that he would be the last to ever see Christ, assuming that he himself was not a fruad, only that he was the last of his time. Countless individuals have since claimed to have seen Jesus in visions, which would have been the manner that Paul would have seen him in, if at all, since he confirmably never met the mortal Christ. Paul is no more creditable of a witness. On the another note, millions more have claimed to have seen goasts, which to my understanding of most interpritations of the Bible should not exist, and if they do, then there would be nothing miraculus about the resserrection of Jesus, other than his body going missing (an easy hoax.)

[Nosajimiki]

Ephisians 4:
4. There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;

5. One Lord, one faith, one baptism,

6. One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

:words written by a man in response to the 10 commandments: tell me where God, not a man, or man who thinks he is God, says that there is only one God.

[Elros]

Ephisians 4:
4. There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;

5. One Lord, one faith, one baptism,

6. One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

:words written by a man in response to the 10 commandments: tell me where God, not a man, or man who thinks he is God, says that there is only one God.

Every word in the Bible was written by man. So that is a stupid request. However, those who believe the Bible(like myself), believe that God gave the words to man to write in the Bible. God uses men to do his work. It is a great priviledge to be used by God to do something. God used Moses to write the Torah(first five books of the Old Testament) God used Jeremiah to write the book of Jeremiah, and God used Paul to write the 14 epistles. So if you want me to show you where God said it, then that is impossible because God would have to speak it out of his mouth into a recorder and let me play it for you to hear. However God did say it through Paul the apostle and other men in the Bible that were used by God to write the books of the Bible.

[Nosajimiki]

"Every word in the Bible was written by man. So that is a stupid request."

Not a stupid request, only one that you can not fulfill

just FYI: I may not agree with your beliefs, but I must admit, I am impressed that you can actually argue them as well as you have, but when it comes down to it you have have made a leap of faith upon which your entire system is based. Despite how I may come off at times I actually respect that, but this right here is the primise of what you might call my leep back from faith.

Everything about faith and religion and God come from man as far as can be plausably demonstraited. You might not need to hear the voice of God himself to believe he exists, but I can not believe that a being that is both beinevolent and considers our opionions of him important enough to save or damn us by them would sit back and not speak while man goes about the atrocities we have been comiting since the time of Christ. He could have made Jesus the son of Adam and Eve and redeemed man there and then, but he didn't. He could speak to each and every one of us, and countless souls would be saved, but he doesn't.

But dispite the seemingly gloomy world you might see this kind of though generate, it has opened my eyes to something else. If goodness exists in the Bible, and it did not come from God, then it comes from man. If man does not need God to know of goodness, then that goodness is inheirent in ourselves. That goodness, along with out evils are present in our emotions, and by our reason (or faith in the reason of others) we are able to control our actions brought about by emotion to either good or bad ends; thus, man can and does reason to be good without him.

[formerly known as hf]

proof is relative when I want it to be but absolute when I'm requiring it of you

So someone does understand!

[Pie]

Nosajami(sp, i know) God is speaking, You're probably just not listening.

Also, free will.

He limited himself, so we could exist, and I don't think he is likely to make us nonexistant just like that, just becaus of what a few punk kids are doing.

And he waited for jesus to be born in 0 ad, so that his word would be spread out among the world, and so he would have alot of proof for him.

I have to go, so sorry.

[formerly known as hf]

So, many of you agree that;

Joseph Smith, followed by many thousands, reverred as prophet - is a fraud?

Mohammed, followed by many millions, seen as a prophet by many more - was a fraud and created a fraudulent religion?

Hinduism, as it does not believe in a christo-judao god, must be fraudulent...

Etc. for all other 'false / fraud' god religions and beliefs in Asia?

The Pope, followed by many many people, is not God's voice on earth, but put there by people, and is a fraud?



So,
what makes Jesus the real thing?

He has a book?
So does Mohammed.
So do most other religions.

He resurrected himself?
Well, to top that, many gods of other rleigions can't even be killed in the first place.

He has millions of followers?
So do many other gods

He had eye-witness martyrs.
So did Mohammed.




If I was a Hindu, and we were having similar arguments, what arguments would you use to refute my beliefs - that can't also be applied to refute Christian beliefs?

[Elros]

So, many of you agree that;

Joseph Smith, followed by many thousands, reverred as prophet - is a fraud?

Mohammed, followed by many millions, seen as a prophet by many more - was a fraud and created a fraudulent religion?

Hinduism, as it does not believe in a christo-judao god, must be fraudulent...

Etc. for all other 'false / fraud' god religions and beliefs in Asia?

The Pope, followed by many many people, is not God's voice on earth, but put there by people, and is a fraud?



So,
what makes Jesus the real thing?

He has a book?
So does Mohammed.
So do most other religions.

He resurrected himself?
Well, to top that, many gods of other rleigions can't even be killed in the first place.

He has millions of followers?
So do many other gods

He had eye-witness martyrs.
So did Mohammed.




If I was a Hindu, and we were having similar arguments, what arguments would you use to refute my beliefs - that can't also be applied to refute Christian beliefs?

There is a saying that says: "When you find the Truth, you will know it".

That is the way it is. Once you have found the truth, you will know without a doubt that it is true and right. That is why I can argue against all of the other things you named above. I believe and know with my whole heart that Jesus is God's son and that he died for the sins of the World, and that whoever beliveth in him should not perish but have everlasting life in heaven(paraphrased from John 3:16).

It has been a pleasure talking and debating all of the matters above, but I will not be able to get on very often for a while because of my RL. So, I will be ending my debating on this topic.

You and others have said that you can never be 100% certain about something, well that is because you have not found the thruth yet. I hope that some day each and everyone of you will find it.

[formerly known as hf]

There is a saying that says: "When you find the Truth, you will know it".

That is the way it is. Once you have found the truth, you will know without a doubt that it is true and right. That is why I can argue against all of the other things you named above. I believe and know with my whole heart that Jesus is God's son and that he died for the sins of the World, and that whoever beliveth in him should not perish but have everlasting life in heaven(paraphrased from John 3:16).

It has been a pleasure talking and debating all of the matters above, but I will not be able to get on very often for a while because of my RL. So, I will be ending my debating on this topic.

You and others have said that you can never be 100% certain about something, well that is because you have not found the thruth yet. I hope that some day each and everyone of you will find it.

Well, ditto really. I hope one day you realise your truth is actually a lie.

[saztronic]

There is a saying that says: "When you find the Truth, you will know it".

That is the way it is. Once you have found the truth, you will know without a doubt that it is true and right. That is why I can argue against all of the other things you named above. I believe and know with my whole heart that Jesus is God's son and that he died for the sins of the World, and that whoever beliveth in him should not perish but have everlasting life in heaven(paraphrased from John 3:16).

It has been a pleasure talking and debating all of the matters above, but I will not be able to get on very often for a while because of my RL. So, I will be ending my debating on this topic.

You and others have said that you can never be 100% certain about something, well that is because you have not found the thruth yet. I hope that some day each and everyone of you will find it.

This is, without question, the most chilling and disturbing note I have ever seen on the forums.

The Inquisitors who tortured and killed in the name of Jesus were 100% certain that what they were doing was right, and God's will. They believed they had found the truth, and the truth was utter ruthlessness and brutality in the pursuit of witches and heretics and anyone who didn't agree with their truth.

Suicide bombers are 100% certain that what they are doing is right, and God's will. The believe they have found the truth, and the truth is about destroying your enemies through self-destruction to earn a coveted place in paradise.

People who are 100% sure of things are the most dangerous people on the planet. They do not change course no matter what evidence contradicts their beliefs; they are willing to use any means whatsoever in the propagation or defense of those beliefs; and in fine Orwellian fashion, they call evil good and good evil.

I pity you if you believe you have cornered the market on truth, and that you are 100% right. Faith is not possible without doubt. Without doubt, faith is not faith -- it is hubris. If you claim you have no doubt, then you have placed yourself above the very humanity you claim God gives you. You make yourself into a god -- for who but a god can know with absolute certainty. In this sense you break the very commandments you reference above, because you place yourself above God.

100% right. The very idea sends a chill down my spine and casts yet another shadow on my hope for the future of the world.

[Nosajimiki]

Yes Saztronic I find that kind of thing very disturbing too, but I don't automaticly judge such people as evil. Gandi believed 100% in passivism after-all. Faith even absolute, isn't nessissarly dangerious, but when that faith is dangerious, it becomes aboslutely dangerious when itself is believed absolutely; thus, it is only more potentially dangerious... kind of like a nuke that may or may not be active