Religion

[Nosajimiki]

The letters to the Galatians are Paul's interpritation of the stories of Jesus as he was not one of the original apostiles, infact, he never even meet Christ.

He has no more right say what is or isnt than the Pope whom you have already said holds no such right, because he is chosen by men, just as Paul was named an apostile by Peter, also a man. Perhaps you can claim that he was chosen by God to speak for him, I could just as easilly make the same arguement for myself.

All that is given from here from the old testiment is that God said to Abraham, "In thee shall all nations be blessed.", but this statement is too ambiguious to suport anything about the replacement of Law, or even the salvation of gentiles. In the Exodus, the Jews were ordered by God to genocide the gentiles, and there-by replace the gentile nations with Jewdaic ones, which by other interpritations could just as rightfully be a "blessing on them".

... please, take as much time and space to explain as needed, I'm pretty sure I know where your gonna go from here, but I think it would be more fun to see you go there for yourself.

[Nakranoth]

Then tell me this, was God wrong in condemning the gentiles to begin with? And if not, why did it change it's mind about their being cursed? I'm pretty sure this is what Nosajimiki was asking. What you just told us in short is that God redefined who were to be classified at heathens. Why would God change its own rules if not flawed?

[formerly known as hf]

Please, I really hate seeing Bible quotes.

People might as well quote Lear for all the sense they can get out of either...


Quote me anything in the Bible to proove a point, and I'll find something also in the Bible that refutes that point. Chances are, I can refute the point using the same damned passage originally quoted - the Bible is so open to interpretation as to be a useless tool.

[Pie]

ACtually there was a way for a gentile to be saved. He had to become a jew, through a ritual involving baptising in water.

Ok then, FKHF. do it. PRove this point to me... that alians exist.

or, oh, how about this one... that every person is a god.

or that jesus wasn't god who came down to earth.

or that we should kill homosexuals (that one should be "Easy")

and I will show you another 10 reasons that disprove all of those.

[Pie]

Then tell me this, was God wrong in condemning the gentiles to begin with? And if not, why did it change it's mind about their being cursed? I'm pretty sure this is what Nosajimiki was asking. What you just told us in short is that God redefined who were to be classified at heathens. Why would God change its own rules if not flawed?

you must realise that, as with his other changes that he made, and with everything, he has compation. I mean, he didn't just kill of a city, if he wanted to. HE did it becaus everyone in that city was a heathen, and even then, he would send a profit to go to there to try and change there minds.

Just be caus he changed his mind, dosen't mean that he isn't infinate, even though I believe that he made himself not infinate so we could exist, it just means that he has compation. Becaus, as you see, when we fell from Eden, we brought sin into the world, and into ourselves (at least adam and eve did) so the only way that god could ever allow us into heaven, and the only way for us to be un sinfull, and righious, was to get rid of this sin somehow. Now how are you to say, that animal sacrifice wasn't the perfect (or at least close to perfect as he could have gotton in this situation) decition? he couldn't have just let adam and eve of the hook. No. they were sinful. they ate of the fruit, and now they were unfit for the garden. He had to obey the rules that he set down. If he just let adam and eve of the hook, that would mean that he is unjust. killing them would mean that he had no compation. letting them go out of the garden, and giving them a way to come back into the garden when everything is done, shows that he has compation for adam and eve.

So what i am saying, is that god chose to iradicate animal sacrificing, becaus it NO LONGER had a use. I'm not saying that it was imperfect. It was probably the best decition that he had to chose from. No, he just had a better way of doing things, a more compationit way.

It only shows that god has compation. Just becaus he changed, dosen't mean it was the perfect answer when it was made.

[Elros]

ACtually there was a way for a gentile to be saved. He had to become a jew, through a ritual involving baptising in water.

Yeah I know that, but I said only Jews could be saved and if a Gentile became a Jew by getting circumsized ect.. then he would be a Jew. So what I said was not wrong, but you just added a little more to it.

Either way you had to be a Jew to get to heaven.

[Elros]

The letters to the Galatians are Paul's interpritation of the stories of Jesus as he was not one of the original apostiles, infact, he never even meet Christ.

He has no more right say what is or isnt than the Pope whom you have already said holds no such right, because he is chosen by men, just as Paul was named an apostile by Peter, also a man. Perhaps you can claim that he was chosen by God to speak for him, I could just as easilly make the same arguement for myself.

Once again you have shown your lack of knowledge about the Bible. Paul "DID" see Christ on the road to Damascus. That was where he was called to be an apostle.

[Phalynx]

Can anyone summarise the last 1200 posts so I can get a grip on this?

[formerly known as hf]

Ok then, FKHF. do it. PRove this point to me... that alians exist.

Easy. The star of Bethlehem, if it existed, may have been an extra-terrestrial UFO. At no point does the Bible really give much of an explanation for the source of this 'star'.

Also, God constantly yabbers on about not worshiping any other, or any false 'gods'. How can there be any other gods, if God also says 'I am the one and only God'? Isn't that a bit of a contradiction. What, or who, are these other gods? Something made up by people? A super-intelligent extra terrestrial life-form that previously visited our planet? An alien life-form created by God to test us?
Yes, I know those go against God only having created life on Earth, but the Bible is known for its contradictions...

or, oh, how about this one... that every person is a god.

I'm not quite sure what you mean by that? We are all in god's image, apparently, so there's that...
And in John 10:22-38, it could easily be contrued that jesus is saying all people are gods...
Heck, even some Christian denominations believe all people have the potential to become gods or god-like.

or that jesus wasn't god who came down to earth.

There are a few bits of the Bible which refute the Trinity notion of god.

"Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, [i]the LORD is one. (From the NIV Bible, Deuteronomy 6:4)"[/i]
Also repeated:
"The most important one," answered Jesus, "is this: 'Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one. (From the NIV Bible, Mark 12:29)"
Note that jesus says Lord our god - how could jesus be god, if god is also his god...?

"Why do you call me good?" Jesus answered. "No one is good–except God alone." (From the NIV Bible, Mark 10:18)"
Jesus doesn't think of himself as good! And god alone - again with the oneness, not thriceness of god... From the mouth jesus himself (supposedly)

or that we should kill homosexuals (that one should be "Easy")

Lemon Squeezy...
Lev.20:13
"If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them."

and I will show you another 10 reasons that disprove all of those.

Using the Bible, no doubt?...

What a pointless book for basing morality upon, if it can be used at the same time to justofy two opposing sides to an argument...


Those examples were a bit extreme - but they are all there. The Bible can be hacked, brought apart and quoted in any way, to propose a certain viewpoint - even the out-there examples you asked of me I could just about cover - inclduing quotes where Jesus himself says he is not god...

Imagine how easy it must be to justify murder, rape, all other forms of abuse using the Bible if I can potentially indicate the existence of extra terrestrials using it...

[Nalaris]

Two different societies, modern and ancient, call for slightly different laws. Although the basic tenets of right and wrong are constant and unchanging (i.e. 'homosexuality is bad'), their specifics change according to the times (i.e. while in ancient times stoning the homosexual was acceptable, in modern times it is not, and Gordon B. Hinckley (current Prophet) has also told us to treat them like any other person.). This does not mean that God 'changes His mind', however, He merely adapts basic good and evil to different societies, thus allowing there to be harmony in the world. There are very few societies so evil that they must be destroyed outright(though these societies do exist: Sodom and Gommorah come to mind).

The trinity is a myth generated out of the psuedo polytheism of the Catholic church, likely taken from a pagan religion popular with locals at the time. I can't find the specific verse, but there's a quote in the Bible where someone, being stoned to death, see's Jesus standing on the right hand of God. If Jesus and God are the same person, that provides quite an amusing picture.

[Nakranoth]

Once again you have shown your lack of knowledge about the Bible. Paul "DID" see Christ on the road to Damascus. That was where he was called to be an apostle.

Elros, don't point fingers when you're not completely certain yourself... Acts 9:1-22 Saul's conversion. He never met Jesus. He claims to have been converted by this "miraculous" event... but he was never in the company of Jesus. *Note* He saw nothing but a blinding light.

Would you like me to put the quote here, or shall I just leave it up to you to look up?

[west]

Can anyone summarise the last 1200 posts so I can get a grip on this?

The Bible is (literal/figurative/a mixture) (the holy infallible word of god/ a collection of stories written by people/ a forgery).

God (exists/does not exist) (and loves us /and hates us/and is an alien).

Jesus (was a dude/was the son of god/never existed/was an okay chap)

Islam (is the next revelation after christianity / is a fraud / etc)

There is (bountiful evidence / no evidence) of a higher power.

Faith is now equivalent to fact, proof is relative when I want it to be but absolute when I'm requiring it of you, circular logic is perfectly acceptable (i.e. the Bible is the holy word of God because the Bible says it is the holy word of God and because the Bible is the holy word of God it must be true.), atheists and believers are immature, there may be aliens among us, nobody here seems to like the Pope, and Joseph Mormon was/was not a pretty obvious fraud.

Does that clear things up? No? My work here is done!

Hail Eris!
All Hail Discordia!

[Phalynx]

Does that clear things up? !

Yup pretty much clears up the whole world....... you should lecture in Theology

[Elros]

Also, God constantly yabbers on about not worshiping any other, or any false 'gods'. How can there be any other gods, if God also says 'I am the one and only God'? Isn't that a bit of a contradiction. What, or who, are these other gods? Something made up by people? A super-intelligent extra terrestrial life-form that previously visited our planet? An alien life-form created by God to test us?

This is so simple it isn't even funny. Other "false gods" is reffering to Idols that humans make and worship. False gods can also be characters of nature like the Sun or Moon, or Cows(like in India). In other words anything that humans try to serve besides the one true God are false gods. Flase meaning they are NOT real. Thus, there is only "1" God. 1 verse that describes this is the following. And as always, there are many more that do, but here is just one of them:

Exodus 20:
3. Thou shalt have no other gods before me.

4. Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.

5. Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;

6. And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.

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Heck, even some Christian denominations believe all people have the potential to become gods or god-like.

There you go again mixing "Cristian" with "Religion". You should have said "Religous denominations".

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There are a few bits of the Bible which refute the Trinity notion of god.

"Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one. (From the NIV Bible, Deuteronomy 6:4)"
Also repeated:
"The most important one," answered Jesus, "is this: 'Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one. (From the NIV Bible, Mark 12:29)"
Note that jesus says Lord our god - how could jesus be god, if god is also his god...?

"Why do you call me good?" Jesus answered. "No one is good–except God alone." (From the NIV Bible, Mark 10:1Cool"
Jesus doesn't think of himself as good! And god alone - again with the oneness, not thriceness of god... From the mouth jesus himself (supposedly)

As in the first few verses you put there that said God or the Lord is one, well that is true. God the Father, God the Son(Jesus Christ), and God the Holy Ghost, are all "one". So yes God is "one" with the trinity.

Secondly, so what if Jesus calls "God the Father" his God also. God the Father is God over all. So is Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost. They are all one.

Lastly, the verse you quoted out of Mark 10:1 does not even exist. Apperantly you couldn't find the verse you wanted so you made that one up hoping that no one would catch it. Mark 10:1(in the NIV since that is what you used) says:

Jesus then left that place and went into the region of Judea and across the Jordan. Again crowds of people came to him, and as was his custom, he taught them.

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Lastly I just wanted to say that there are no contradictions in the KJV Bible. I say the KJV because that is the one I use, and I can't speak for the other newer translations, but I challenge you to show me a contradiction.

[Elros]

Once again you have shown your lack of knowledge about the Bible. Paul "DID" see Christ on the road to Damascus. That was where he was called to be an apostle.

Elros, don't point fingers when you're not completely certain yourself... Acts 9:1-22 Saul's conversion. He never met Jesus. He claims to have been converted by this "miraculous" event... but he was never in the company of Jesus. *Note* He saw nothing but a blinding light.

Would you like me to put the quote here, or shall I just leave it up to you to look up?

I do not need to look up the verses, I know them by heart. In that passage it says that he was spoken to but did not see him. Later it says that Jesus was last seen of Paul. The following verse shows this:

I Corinthians 15:

3.For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;

4.And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

5.And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve:

6.After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep.

7.After that, he was seen of James; then of all the apostles.

8.And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time.