Religion

[west]

I don't take science as a panacea or a religion. It's just a manner of thinking about the world. I for one would rather a method based on evidence, intelligent conjecture, testing, and experimenting than one that just says, "God did it. Bob told me."

There are of course limits to what we can observe, perceive and comprehend. But that doesn't mean we should limit ourselves further than necessary. We should explore to the limits of our faculties, and try to expand them.

[Elros]

If something goes against the commandments that God has given in His Word(the Bible) then it is wrong and evil. It does not matter if one christian's feelings tell him it is wrong, and another tells him it isn't. It doesn't matter if I feel it is wrong or isn't, it does not matter if you feel it is wrong or isn't. In the end, it is what God has said that counts, and all other arguments will be pointless.

Is it what God said in the Hebrew Bible? Then you better not be wearing a cotton/polyester blend, or shave your beard a certain way, or eat shrimp.

Is it what God said in the New Testament? Then eating meat is okay for you and not for me, but you'd better not eat it in front of me or you'll be causing me to stumble.

Once again you show your uneduction towards the Bible and christianity. The christian Bible contains the "Torah and Books of the Prophets"(hebrew bible as you call it), as well as the new testament. They are not 2 different bibles. Where your ignorance comes in though is you not knowing the distinction and difference God commands to his children(those who chose to accept him as their Saviour and repent of their sins) in the New Testament then he had commanded in the Old Testament. Once Jesus died on the cross the laws and sacrificie were reaplaced with Faith in Jesus Chrust. No more do we have to get to heaven by works like "not wearing a cotton/polyester blend, or shave your beard a certain way, or eat shrimp", but by believing and excepting Jesus as the Son of God.

[Nosajimiki]

that may be an ignorance of christianitie's attepts to validate itself, but not of the Bible. If God proclaims in the old Testiment what is and is not a sin, and he is infallable, then what right does the new tesitment have to nullify that? Jesus spoke against the teachings of the old testiment meaning either Jesus was wrong (and therefore not God), or The Old Testiment is wrong (and therefore not the word of God.), or God is not infalibale meaning that he is a not the perfect model of morality. Why would God change his rules unless he realized that they are wrong?

[Elros]

that may be an ignorance of christianitie's attepts to validate itself, but not of the Bible. If God proclaims in the old Testiment what is and is not a sin, and he is infallable, then what right does the new tesitment have to nullify that? Jesus spoke against the teachings of the old testiment meaning either Jesus was wrong (and therefore not God), or The Old Testiment is wrong (and therefore not the word of God.), or God is not infalibale meaning that he is a not the perfect model of morality. Why would God change his rules unless he realized that they are wrong?

First of all, Jesus is God. I do not need to explain all that but it is in the Bible, and if you do not know that then I can show you if you need to know. So it was not Jesus changing God's commandments, it was God changing God's commandments. The reason he did is all very simple if you have ever read the Bible much, it is all in there. Jesus's coming and death, as well as the changing from obeying the Laws to get to heaven, to beliving on Jesus to get there is in fact the main theme of the Bible.

[Nosajimiki]

You are evading the question. Why would God need to change his own laws if he is always right. Either he fucked up and tryed to fix it with Jesus, or Jesus was not God. Yes the Old Testiment tells of the coming of a messia that would save the Jewish race, but not the nullification of the Laws of God. Jesus did not save the Jewish race because they are still dealing with the same shit they were over 2000 years ago, remember WWII?

[Pie]

And plus, any commandnments that are in liviticus, are only valid for the levites, the people who are in the tempals. And any other commandnments, can surly be explained as a special situathion.

And plus, as I have alredy said, Having him change his rules, is only a sign that he has compation. We fell from Eden, and since then, to repay for our sins, as adam ate from the fruit, we hade to sacrifice animals. It was a temporary fix, until god could work up all of the conditions to make jesus have the most impact on the world.

[Elros]

You are evading the question. Why would God need to change his own laws if he is always right. Either he fucked up and tryed to fix it with Jesus, or Jesus was not God. Yes the Old Testiment tells of the coming of a messia that would save the Jewish race, but not the nullification of the Laws of God. Jesus did not save the Jewish race because they are still dealing with the same shit they were over 2000 years ago, remember WWII?

First of all, It would take me pages and pages to show you the answers to the questions you are asking from the Bible. It is very easy to explain with the Bible, and anyone who has read the Bible much knows all of the stuff you are asking. But when you have someone like you, who apearantly is pretty ignorant on christian beliefs it could take a long time.

Oh and the thing about saving the Jewish race, that is saving them spiritually not phisically.

[Elros]

And plus, as I have alredy said, Having him change his rules, is only a sign that he has compation. We fell from Eden, and since then, to repay for our sins, as adam ate from the fruit, we hade to sacrifice animals. It was a temporary fix, until god could work up all of the conditions to make jesus have the most impact on the world.

That is exactly right.

[formerly known as hf]

I certainly do not see science as a panacea.

Nor is the scientific community free from abuse. We all know the stories about cig companies paying for 'positive' research, and oil companies paying for research that refutes global wamring.

But, the scientific community has methods of self-reflection, self-doubt and self-control. Which many organised religions are deeply lacking.

[Elros]

But, the scientific community has methods of self-reflection, self-doubt and self-control. Which many organised religions are deeply lacking.

Yes you are right about "Many" religions lacking that. However a true christian, not a certain religious organization, does not lack those things. People get christianity and religion greatly mixed up. They put them in the same group and make them the same thing. That is "NOT" the case. A Christian is "someone who is Christ-Like". It does not have to do with any "religion". It has to do with a persin acceptting Jesus Christ as God's Son who was sent to the earth to die for their sins. Then they repent and change their ways, and try to live holy and rightoues as God is. That is a christian.

[formerly known as hf]

You get me wrong.

I have nothing deeply against individual belivers in religion per se. I have met some quite enlightened Chritians, Muslims and Hindus in my life, and there are some here.

Unless they present predjudice or discrimination - but it does not take faith to be predjudiced, although, unfortunately, many religious beliefs work to perpetuate predjudice views.


My major grief is with organised religion - which many believers subscribe to. Different religious organisations perpetuate discrimination in different ways, the most common targets being women, children and homosexuals. They are all common in one respect, that they are about an elite few controlling the masses.
And that's not just for organised religions, we've all seen prominent leaders over the world call upon 'God', in many forms, to justify their actions.

And far more often than not, that control is abused, disgustingly so.

[Pie]

My major grief is with organised religion - which many believers subscribe to. Different religious organisations perpetuate discrimination in different ways, the most common targets being women, children and homosexuals. They are all common in one respect, that they are about an elite few controlling the masses.
And that's not just for organised religions, we've all seen prominent leaders over the world call upon 'God', in many forms, to justify their actions.

And far more often than not, that control is abused, disgustingly so.

I agree (slightly) I'm not sure how it goes against wemon and children, and of course not all orgonised religions do this, i must say that jehova's witnesses certainly do something (people have needed counceling after whatever happened in it) mormonism uses poligamy, wich I disagree with (in 1 corinthians it sais thusly so) and catholic church sais that the pope, a person who was apointed so by man, should have power in the supernatural relm (hah) And thusly so with cardinals and bishops (hah) But some orgonasations do not do anything like this. you just haven't found the right one yet.

[Elros]

I must say that jehova's witnesses certainly do something (people have needed counceling after whatever happened in it) mormonism uses poligamy, wich I disagree with (in 1 corinthians it sais thusly so) and catholic church sais that the pope, a person who was apointed so by man, should have power in the supernatural relm (hah) And thusly so with cardinals and bishops (hah) But some orgonasations do not do anything like this. you just haven't found the right one yet.

That is correct, I agree with you Pie.

[Nosajimiki]

You are evading the question. Why would God need to change his own laws if he is always right. Either he fucked up and tryed to fix it with Jesus, or Jesus was not God. Yes the Old Testiment tells of the coming of a messia that would save the Jewish race, but not the nullification of the Laws of God. Jesus did not save the Jewish race because they are still dealing with the same shit they were over 2000 years ago, remember WWII?

First of all, It would take me pages and pages to show you the answers to the questions you are asking from the Bible. It is very easy to explain with the Bible, and anyone who has read the Bible much knows all of the stuff you are asking. But when you have someone like you, who apearantly is pretty ignorant on christian beliefs it could take a long time.

Oh and the thing about saving the Jewish race, that is saving them spiritually not phisically.

I've been through 12 years of christian private education in multiple denominations, I've read the Bible very well, though not within the past few years, I did not miss a Sunday of worship, health regardless, untill I finnally realized just how much of a BS cult it is, but I have no lack of understanding of Christianity. I understand it well enough to see it's self contridictions, so if you care to call me wrong then prove it.

[Elros]

I've been through 12 years of christian private education in multiple denominations, I've read the Bible very well, though not within the past few years, I did not miss a Sunday of worship, health regardless, untill I finnally realized just how much of a BS cult it is, but I have no lack of understanding of Christianity. I understand it well enough to see it's self contridictions, so if you care to call me wrong then prove it.

Ok first of all:

In the Old Testament, and all the way to the Cross, all other nations that were not Jews could not be saved. Salvation was for the Jews only, and that was thru the sacrificies and keeping all of the 613(I believe the number is right) commandments. God however wanted to bring salvation unto all the Gentiles(nations who are not Jews) as well. Therefore he had to make a "New" Testament for the Gentile(heathen as they were called in the Bible) nations to be able to be saved as well. The following chapter explains alot of it.

Galatians 3

1O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?

2This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

3Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

4Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain.

5He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

6Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.

7Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.

8And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.

9So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.

10For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.

11But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.

12And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.

13Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

14That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

15Brethren, I speak after the manner of men; Though it be but a man's covenant, yet if it be confirmed, no man disannulleth, or addeth thereto.

16Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

17And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.

18For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.

19Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.

20Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one.

21Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.

22But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

23But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.

24Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

25But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

26For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

27For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

28There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

29And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.


You said to explain it even though I told you it would be long, so here is some of it. If you still don't see it I can give you more.