Religion

[Pie]

that one killing of all the male newborns in egypt, becaus of that star.

Sorry, got ahead of myself a little there.

[Elros]

that one killing of all the male newborns in egypt, becaus of that star.

Sorry, got ahead of myself a little there.

Um.... It would be nice if you could write in complete sentences and thoughts because I still do not get what you are saying. However this "Star" thing you are talking about over Egypt, there was no such thing anywhere in the Bible. There was a star over the manger where Jesus was born in Bethlehem, but not a star over Egypt during the plagues.

Could you please expound a little more on what you are talking about when you reffer to this "star", and where you are geting this info from?

[formerly known as hf]

The ways of god are beyond the thoughts of man, and who are we(the created) to question God(the creator)?

The ways of God are nought but the thoughts of people (That use of 'man' is archaic...)

Who is God (the created) to question people (the creators)?

[Nalaris]

Well then, it all depends on which came first. Now we've gone in a circle.

[rklenseth]

None of it came first or last. Assuming so means that time is one straight line with a clear beginning and clear end.

But it would be intersting to see a discussion of this matter a bit more. Perhaps if God simply exists because we thought God up and believed that God existed then perhaps we should be looking at who or what thought us up and lets hope to God that something doesn't stop believing.

But regardless of what you believe or don't believe, Isaac Newton made a a very compelling argument. The chances of life existing as we know it on Earth are so improbable that life ought not to exist at all nonetheless life has somehow prevailed and prospered on Earth and even more improbable, intelligent life able to question and interact with the universe around it has come to be. I'll just leave you all with that.

[Elros]

The ways of god are beyond the thoughts of man, and who are we(the created) to question God(the creator)?

The ways of God are nought but the thoughts of people (That use of 'man' is archaic...)

Who is God (the created) to question people (the creators)?

I was reading some articles the other day and I thought this one might apply to you.

Atheists interpret the Bible as a volume of "babble" and full of nonexistent contradictions. Atheism is not elevated enough to allow even its most educated subjects to understand the Bible. Therefore the Bible puzzles them as calculus puzzles the dimwitted.

Atheism make dimwits of all its subjects and makes the most "learned" or "educated" more dimwitted than the ignorant. Not only does atheism prevent atheists from properly understanding the Bible, but it prevents their minds from being elevated enough to understand the simplest common sense facts.

For example: It is the educated atheist who get the roles of males and females mixed up, and who think homosexuality and lesbianism are normal. It is the atheist who can't tell whether a human is human while he or she is yet in the womb. It is the atheist who gets justice mixed up and who thinks the innocent human embryo and fetus should get the penalty of death and the criminal murderer ought to get life for his death worthy crime. It is the atheist who thinks the terminally ill ought to receive the sentence of death for their noncriminal sicknesses. It is the atheists who condemns the righteous and exonerates the wicked. The list of examples can go on and on.

I also thought that was a pretty good statement:

The fingerprints of God are clearly seen in many ways: One is the fact that no creature has the ability to CREATE. Man can take what has already been created and change it or make a mixture of something with what has already been created; but man as well as every other creature and thing is totally void of the ability to actually BRING INTO BEING SOMETHING FROM NOTHING.

[Elros]

Just one last statement about the whole "Is there or isn't there a God?" topic.

If a person opposes even the possibility of there being a God, then any evidence can be rationalized or explained away. It is like if someone refuses to believe that people have walked on the moon, then no amount of information is going to change their thinking. Photographs of astronauts walking on the moon, interviews with the astronauts, moon rocks...all the evidence would be worthless, because the person has already concluded that people cannot go to the moon.

If you want to see some good evidence on "How you know there IS a God" then you can check this page out. It has some good info.


http://www.everystudent.com/features/isthere.html

[Piscator]

If a person opposes even the possibility of there being NO God, then any indication for that can be rationalized or explained away, also.

[west]

If there aren't gods, humankind WILL create them.

So how is the One True God supposed to stand out from the clutter of millions of "false" gods? Especially when he/she/it is all but indistinguishable from them, save for a few historically fortunate events?

(Hail Eris!)

[formerly known as hf]

That quite about atheism is deeply disturbing, and, franlkly, just insulting.

Gender concepts aren't 'difficult' for me to get my head around. I am just fully aware that they are social constructs, not natural differences.
It is the misguided types that consider social concepts to be 'natural', rather than seeing them for what they are - the result of many years of western patriarchal, homosexual domination.
If homosexuality was truly 'unnatural' - why have so many cultures considered it the norm?

It is the misguided Christian who descides that a woman should have no control over her own body.
It is the misguided Chritian who condems the righteous and exonerates the wicked. This is done through many methods, not least by putting blind faith behind beliefs which are harmful, and putting trust in those who do not deserve it.
It is the misguided Christian who wages war against other humans and justifies it by calling upon God
etc.


The Bible is not a puzzle to me. i have read it. I am happy to concede that much of it is historically accurate. What does puzzle me, is how people can believe it word for word, and not see it for what it patently is - work at the hand of men, not God.


I cannot say there is no God, as one can never disprove something. But there is no proof for God. I do not feel there to be God.

And if the religions I see in the world, the evil, the hate, the pain and suffering that I see perpetuated by religions, are related to this God. I want nothing to do with said God.

[Dee]

Hmm.. What you said makes us go straight to square number one. Wars. hatred, terrorism, and everything else are human made. What makes them human made? Free will. Some people are bad, and they make wrong choices, and thus make the wolrd a misrable place.

If homosexuality was truly 'unnatural' - why have so many cultures considered it the norm?

If you think about what you said, you'll find that non-relegious people are the ones who make homosexuality the norm. Which just proves what Elros has said.

If there aren't gods, humankind WILL create them.

Create what? Gods? What good is God if he CANNOT create human beings? Really... Will we just make up a God and say, oh, he's God, let's worship him.. But for what? For doing what?

Anyway... I think that if you are just willing to open up your mind and believe that there is a possibility for God to exist, maybe you'll understand and, hopefully, believe.

[formerly known as hf]

If homosexuality was truly 'unnatural' - why have so many cultures considered it the norm?

If you think about what you said, you'll find that non-relegious people are the ones who make homosexuality the norm. Which just proves what Elros has said.

No, there are some religions, present and past, which do not have a negative stance against homosexuality. It is not 'us' who make it the norm, or fight to make it accepted. It is organised religion which demonises it.

The onus should not be on us to prove that we are acceptable or 'normal', the onus is on believers to see that the discrimination is unjustified, and unwarranted. Homosexuality has been around much much longer than any modern religion.

The fixation with homosexuality is just one of the many reasons why I see religion as something deeply wrong with our society. There is no harm from homosexuality.

The hatred and rage aimed at homosexuality comes from where? Has every Muslim and Christian personally had a bad experience with a homosexual? Is it so damned abhorrent, that persecution, discrimination, even murder is less abhorrent than homosexuality?

Unless every Christian and Muslim has a better reason than 'I don;t think it's natural' - why so much persecution?
It is this blind hatred and discrimination that religion fosters which disgusts me so much.

Consider almost any major persecution or discrimination in recent and past times. The fervour and hatred has been whipped-up by religious leaders, religion has been used to justify hatred, when there is no real reason for that hatred. Religion has been used to justify racism, to justify child abuse of various kinds, to justify the persecution of homosexuals, to justify anti-anyone who doesn't believe in my relgion or even my version of the same religion. etc etc.

Yes, science has also been used to justify racism and other things. But afterwards, and at the same time, those justifications have been widely debunked.

Religion seems to singularly lack any form of proper self-reflection and self-restraint. Religions are so blinded by their self-righteousness as to be ignorant, or, even worse, indifferent to the suffering they cause.

Anyway... I think that if you are just willing to open up your mind and believe that there is a possibility for God to exist, maybe you'll understand and, hopefully, believe.

I do, I have. I used to be agnostic. But as time has gone on, I feel more and more that there is no God. Not only does it contradict all I know and observe of our world, I see that religion brings far too much suffering and discrimination for precious little gain.

[Dee]

No one said anything about hatred. I don't hate homosexuals, I just don't see that they are 'right'. That's all. And yes, homosexuality has been around even before Islam was found. That's more than 1400 years.

[formerly known as hf]

Well, it's not 'wrong'.

Why, and I do not direct this solely at yourself Dee, do people feel the need to make judgements about sexuality - a part of someone's personal life which affects few others?
I may dislike someone else's taste in clothing, but I would not consider it 'not right'.

Why should Christianity or Islam, or any religion, even give a damn about gender when it comes to love?

I hear so much hipocrasy about 'love each other', 'God is love', 'love Jesus and all your fellow men' etc etc. But, oh no, don't dare love another man so much that you want to feel that close...

An individual's sexuality does not affect so many others the way an individual's religious beliefs might, especially if they are in the habit, as many are, of enforcing those beliefs upon others.

Why should others even give a damn about who someone else goes to bed with at night?

[Pie]

JESUSES RESURECTION!!!

Gah. Some people just do not get it.

Becaus Jesus died and rose again. We have proof (must i go over it again? Oh, and I think diego had something against it....pleas inform me.) of it, and it cannot just be reasoned out.

Homosexuality is just an addiction. The reason someone who is homosexual dosen't get a "lift" frome the femail gender, is that they are addicted to the mail gender.

I for one have no problem against people who are gay, but I do have a problem with the consept of gayness.(Saying that it's not your fault that your gay, and I can't controll my gayness, Is like saying it's not your fault your fat. OF COURSE IT IS!! You sat around all day (you didn't try and controll it) you kept eating (you kept doing 'gay' things) you didn't exersice(you didn't try and controll it) It is your fault you are gay, and you can controll it, just like any other addiction. I have no problem if you don't controll it, but don't try and use that for an argunment for it)

I do think homosexuality is rong, but perhaps that is my upbringing, and I have no prjiduce against anyone who is gay.

And if the religions I see in the world, the evil, the hate, the pain and suffering that I see perpetuated by religions, are related to this God. I want nothing to do with said God.

You haven't been listening to us at all. Either that, or you have no idia what you are talking about.

Free will caused that. God may not like it, but he can't controll a human, due to self limitations he made on himself (he limited himself on his infinity-nes. If he was infinate, he would BE everything. And you know that you are yourself)

Well my mom needs the computer. by.