Smaller world

General out-of-character discussion among players of Cantr II.

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Jos Elkink
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Smaller world

Postby Jos Elkink » Sun Sep 24, 2006 2:03 pm

In the problems of Cantr discussion it starts to get interesting about the size of the world. I've been thinking about this a lot (in fact already wrote an email about this, more or less, to the GAC in May 2005 :) ), but cannot find a good solution yet in my head :) ... This one is nice and simple:

formerly known as hf wrote:For a while now, I think our best bet is just to universally double all travel speeds...


That would of course be extremely easy to implement, and would also make the game a lot more fun at least in the two oldest islands. But on the long term it might be damaging. I never liked the long travelling times, but the reason I had those, was to have a very strong incentive to create cars. I always envisioned cars (or other vehicles) to be the main form of transportation in the game, not walking. Walking should be *within* locations. But alas, car/vehicle production has always been very slow.

A crucial thing to point out is that originally I made the distances between locations much larger than on newer islands. So the Cantr/Pok islands, which in terms of number of locations are a very small part of the Cantr world, are the only two islands with really long distances. And the effect is very noticable - cf. the comments about K-island, or this quote from the recent Webzine (did I mention already it's a brilliant Webzine!?):

Patryk Rutkowski wrote:In the Polish area things go faster. A lot of RPing, a lot of events. Every week is a "big case" I would say.


There can be many reasons for this, but one might be that the Polish are on newer islands, with much shorter distances. They are spread over a large area - probably at least as many locations as the English - but they have more activity and seemingly a more interesting game. Their recent enormous growth in number of players must also be an indication of a quality game there.

So the question is, if we just speed up travelling all over the place, what happens to 1) the incentives to create and use vehicles, and 2) the game in the current newer islands.

One solution that automatically comes to mind is to change the distances only on the two older islands, but that will of course change the relative position of those two islands relative to the others and thus mess up all existing quality sailing maps of the area.

Or what about instead of increasing all travelling speed, dramatically lower the cost of vehicles? Would that do the trick? Or would that do more damage to existing vehicle industries, who invested a lot for now low returns, than it does good for the game?

A mechanism more similar to the Aki-island is also an option. There due to the overwhelming numbers in animals, most people were for a long time forced to live in just one town on the island (now it's a few more), creating more social cohesion and a common enemy on the island. A similar trick could possibly be applied to the older Cantr islands. One can, for example, think of vulcanos, with a higher chance of occuring in those islands than in other ones, which kill / destroy within a small radius and deplete locations of resources within a somewhat larger radius. A depletion of resources could force populations to move closer together, or in this case even better, sail to unknown new lands. Something that doesn't destroy the fun of playing for the long term players, but that does force some inhabitants of these two islands to move elsewhere would really stimulate the game long term, I think.

I myself thought the abandonment of the Sring-Sri island after density spawning was introduced was quite cool. It's now inhabited again, but it was a nice natural kind of population dynamic. My char was one of the escapists and it was quite fun to play. Something similar could be stimulated perhaps more widely on those islands.

Just bringing down relative numbers would fix a lot. Currently I think new English characters have a much higher chance of spawning on one of those two islands than any other region, and if this balance is changed, more players will have more interesting areas to play in.

Anyway, I'd be happy to hear further comments/suggestions.
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Postby Jos Elkink » Sun Sep 24, 2006 2:08 pm

Although I don't like that option much at all, I should add that one relatively simple solution could of course be to create some new English spawning locations, some on current big cities, some on new islands hardly inhabited by the English, and turn of density spawning for the English for a few weeks or so. That would possibly seriously change the balans. But it feels too unnatural ;) ... It destroys the natural spread of populations that you can now observe.
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Postby Jos Elkink » Sun Sep 24, 2006 2:10 pm

Jos Elkink wrote:But it feels too unnatural


Although, maybe not ... if I leave out the current big cities idea, but just create spawning points for a little while on a currently uninhabited small island... So that the probability of spawning on such an area increases a bit (you have to do it for quite a while to increase it substantially, I think), would that be a good idea?
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Postby SekoETC » Sun Sep 24, 2006 2:15 pm

How about adding a new location in the middle of all the long roads, such as Tircqi to Brunoi fields, have it have potatoes and a small number of resource collection slots... the perfect place to found an inn.

On the old islands, doubling the speeds would be a good thing and certainly wouldn't stop people from making vehicles, as you can never go fast enough. But I don't know about the Polish islands, would it lead into having one hour roads even for walkers?

Anyway, please do not start any more spawning points. The English characters are already spread wide enough...
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Postby sem » Sun Sep 24, 2006 4:47 pm

SekoETC wrote:How about adding a new location in the middle of all the long roads, such as Tircqi to Brunoi fields, have it have potatoes and a small number of resource collection slots... the perfect place to found an inn.

<snip>

Anyway, please do not start any more spawning points. The English characters are already spread wide enough...


Surely every location is a potential spawning point?
[edit]
I'd agree in a way though. Each location should have at least one other location that's no more than two days away on foot.

I'm not sure it's necessary for each location to have resources though, in fact I'd probably argue that many locations I've seen have too many of them. If the programming weren't too difficult I think some of the over-resourced locations should gradually start to lose resources, so that no location had more than about four or five resources available. The difficulty might lie in programming a gradual decline of a resource.
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Postby viktor » Sun Sep 24, 2006 5:53 pm

SekoETC wrote:How about adding a new location in the middle of all the long roads, such as Tircqi to Brunoi fields, have it have potatoes and a small number of resource collection slots... the perfect place to found an inn....


i second the idea of adding maybe another 30 or so locations to the old islands, it's really the only fix that won't become problematic.
changing speeds or vehicle costs both can result in some problems either early or later on, but tossing a handful of locations here and there is no biggie.
now the thing is not all areas on these islands are sparse there are dense areas like the siom/reniov region and the quillanoi region, as well as the isthmus of djorf and the blit/blojt region, those are all pretty good from what i;ve seen but the rest of those two islands is pretty sparse at least from what my chars have shown me :lol:
and compaired to what little ive seen of aki

anyways, speaking of having limited resources in these extra areas, for example qe and qs if i can remember what i saw, it was sand and potatoes right? just like popping up an extra forest with just wood, ah here's a question, are there any other lakes in the cantrverse besides the one near brunoi that have no acess whatsoever?
ok i think i've made this long enough :P
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Postby Talapus » Sun Sep 24, 2006 6:31 pm

It was my understanding that on some of the older islands, road lengths already do not match map dimensions. I would support the changing of road lengths (on those two older islands) to half of their current length, hopefully without changing the Cantr map.
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Postby zmaster » Sun Sep 24, 2006 6:42 pm

Creating towns in between towns doesn't sound like a good idea. People are complaining about the world being to big, and the population to spread out. Making more cities would merely increase the dispersion.
What if?
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viktor
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Postby viktor » Sun Sep 24, 2006 7:01 pm

zmaster wrote:Creating towns in between towns doesn't sound like a good idea. People are complaining about the world being to big, and the population to spread out. Making more cities would merely increase the dispersion.


that would be the drawback, would turn the old english islands into giant aki's
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BZR
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Postby BZR » Sun Sep 24, 2006 7:09 pm

Redelpoy the resources and delete some parts of existing world
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Postby Schme » Sun Sep 24, 2006 7:28 pm

I say leave it as it is. The incentive to create cars is massive for any smart multi location leader.

Cars are a wonderful way to link up places. If you can't build any cars, you're going to have to put more trust in you're officials and have a less centralized government.

Please, please leave it as it is.
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wichita
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Postby wichita » Sun Sep 24, 2006 7:47 pm

Either recalculate distances on the old islands to fit the map or leave everything the way it is. I do not want to see an increase in movement rates to nerf game travel. It is fine the way it is.

I personally feel that Cantr is in another transistion period in its history. Vehicles are beginning to appear in greater numbers in the developed areas. Once we have finished splitting vehicles into parts, it will be possible for explorers to haul "kit cars" across the sea, which will help the spread of vehicles to the new islands.

As more and more players drive their vehicles on improved roads, the benefit will become glaringly obvious and we will see new booms in road improvement. I have witnessed this first hand in several regions on the old islands.

Combined with strategic use of radios, the Cantr world will eventually shrink in a manner very similar to its expansion during the "Golden Age of Seafaring", which everyone was so friggin' excited about. Why should the Aluminium Age of Motor Travel be any less exciting?
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viktor
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Postby viktor » Sun Sep 24, 2006 7:58 pm

i'm fine with everything left as is, adding locations is the only feasable 'change' that would botch things the least, otherwise leaving it as is, is the best option.
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Postby T-shirt » Sun Sep 24, 2006 8:40 pm

I say travel times should be decreased dramatically.

Cars will still be develloped. As a status symbol, but primarily to be able to carry more with you.

No use in trading without a vehicle when a quarter of your inventory is filled with shield and tools and a third of your inventory is filled with food. Travelling for 15 days to trade for 4 days wood is ridiculous.
Time flies like an arrow, fruit flies like a banana. - G. Marx
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Postby Cherize » Sun Sep 24, 2006 8:47 pm

I see no reason to change things. Unless, you feel the need to make a new game, Cantr-Lite.

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