Religion

[Nakranoth]

Now, to the more valid statement concerning Katrina's broad destruction: the pain suffered by religious people in New Orleans sometimes turns into an advantage: a lot of people got into much better neighborhoods than they were originally in when they lived in New Orleans (I'm thinking particularly of a guy I knew whose family came here from the flooded city. He said he liked it here a lot better.). For others, it simply makes another trial, something to be overcome. After all, thinking about it from a purely spiritual point of view, the family lost nothing.

Okay, that's great... One family was brought closer togeter by this travesty. How about another example family. Mine. My Highly religious mother, along with myself and two of my siblings used to live in the heart of Mid-City New Orleans barely makeing ends meet. After Katrina, one brother is half way across the state, and myself as well as my younger brother were effectively split from her... in esscence it tore what little bit of comortable family we had apart... I'm not saying there was no good amonst the evil... nothing is purely evil in this world, just as nothing is purely good... but to say that any kind and loveing god would allow for so many to be devistated, truely devistated, not just in a worldly sense, but even splitting familes apart, doesn't really sit well with me.

Sure, mardigras may not have been stopped by Katrina, but nothing can stop sin but the utter annihilation of all mankind, or just Satans death (and I'm referring to death here in the Athiest sense of ceasing to exist). I also note that people have started swearing again. Have I struck a chord? Has Pie finally driven Diego to insanity? Or do the people on the Cantr forums simply have an astonishing lack of will power? Only time will tell...

Nalaris, have you ever even been to New Orleans? Media is a terrible source of information. Yes, there is drinking and the like associated with it in parts, but Mardi Gras is, get this, A Religiously based Holiday. Fat Tuesday. Designed as a transition into lent before Ash Wednesday. If you want to claim the Evil of Katrina has some good in it, then how can you ignore the same is true of Mardi Gras?

As a side note, God's perfect. As such, everything he ever made fufills exactly the role intended it. That includes Satan. If God is perfect, and god made Satan, then Satan is exactly as God wants it to be.
(also note, I've yet to leave any swears in a post by the time I click the submit button)

[Nosajimiki]

Faith makes me want to vomit.... It is truly imo, the worst evil to ever befall humanity. Just look at all the death, and destruction it is responsible for... It surpasses science...imo.

Much better not to feel any guilt at all.

Beat, kill and fuck your way to the top.

Not any better, if you ask me.

Athiesm is not free of guilt, infact without a God to blame things on, more moral delimas fall on the shoulders of those who dont go through life with prescribed notions of right and wrong.
Beating, killing, and fucking for personal gain are all justified in some part of the Bible or the other and can easlly be applied to removing one's own guilt. With Athism, if your conscious doesn't agree with it, you have to live with that.

[Schme]

Yes, but you're "conscious" is shaped by your upbringing.

If a child is taught to only look out for himself, that's what he'll do.

How and what people are taught, for the most part, is based on society.

Societies are based on religion. Now, before you go saying no their not, listen here.

I know places like Belgium and Japan and so on technical aren't supposed to base their laws and society on religion.

But it is. Canada, for example.

The word about is that it's all the same, regardless of faith, ect. But the thing is, countries like Canada are based on Christian law and scripture. The people who have been in charge for the last 400 years were very used to Christian law. It worked for them.

So eventually, when time got about when it was no longer in fashion to claim God as having made some decree or another to support this or that king, or some person's crusade, or political cleansing, when the time came around, that was all well and good, but people still were pretty used to Christian law. So we don't call it Christian law anymore, but that's what it's based it.

Even the non religious people like the Christian law, and believe me, there's alot of non religious people and thousands of de facto christians, who really aren't all that big on the Bible.

So the social norm is based on Christian law.

If the social norm was to follow the ideological line of "Eat and Spread your jeans, and don't let anybody stop you from doing it.", then people would feel guilty about raping, steeling and murdering. Nobody would have taught them that they're supposed to feel bad about doing such things, and not to do them even if the opportunity presents itself.

Another example. Before the Conquistadors came to Central America, homosexuality was permitted and thought of as a fact of life. A hundred years later, the natives peoples all but abhored it like the plague, and had themselves some lynchings if they ever suspected that anyone was up to anything.

Be as Atheist as you like. The guilt comes from the society based on religion.

[Schme]

Beating, killing, and fucking for personal gain are all justified in some part of the Bible or the other and can easlly be applied to removing one's own guilt. With Athism, if your conscious doesn't agree with it, you have to live with that.

And refuted in the the rest of it. Ever read the Bible? Anybody who has can see that if you look at it at face value, it's a Tomb of Contradictions.

You can interpret anything to mean anything. But most people who say they're christians can generally agree on the main subjects.

It's not wheather the Bible is truth or not. It's what comes out of it. Most of what comes out of it is good. Even selfishness stemming from the Bible is mostly good.

"Hmm, the police don't seem to have a handle on things. You know, that girl in the building down the street seems nice. Perhaps I can arrange a deal with her in exchange for my protection. With all this lawlessness, she's helpless.

Wait! That would be sinful! If I do that, I will go to Hell. God would be very upset. Dammit!"

Or

"If I'm not charitable, I'm screwed! I'd better get to work."

[Mykey]

I consider, that you are not right. I suggest it to discuss. Write to me in PM.

[Floris]

Moreover, God is not the cause of all the death and terror brought upon the earth by christianity. Men are, and the mistakes of men. And as we all know man is not perfect.



But stop talking about all the terror from the catholic church.

Okay, the have killed hundreds of thousands of people for the so-called case of god: witches, moslims, jews, anything that was not conform their visions.

In those ages though, they were only a fraction of the people that died, millions died from diseases in that times, and hundreds of thousands died in wars.

Stop putting the blame of the christians of this age, the mistakes of the church leaders of medieval ages. If you blame them for that, that is the same as blaming the 80 million nowaday germans for what happened 60 years ago, and the 56 million french for what Napoleon did, and all the Spanish people for what Franco and his fascist regime did, and 1 and a half billion chinese for all the people Mao murdered.



It is perhaps not that good a comparison, but it should bring over my point. The catholic church leaders have done things wrong, but that is not a reason to condemn the christian faith and its followers for it.

[Mykey]

Today I read on this theme much.

[Schme]

Then, Mykey, you're a fool.

Guess what? Nobody remembers what Pope Pious the Sixteenth did. Nobody really care that much either. I don't know whether he was a villain or not (though he probably was), but he doesn't lead the Church anymore.

If anything, the Catholic church was entirely redeemed by His Holyness Jean Paul the Second.

Guess what? The Catholic Church aren't Nazis. They aren't plotting to kill anyone (Well, I'm sure there's people in the Clergy who would kill some people given the chance, but there's "Deists" who would do that too.)

Speaking of Nazis, yes, it was weak of the Pope at the time not to have condemned them. For fear of having Catholics persecuted, he sat by and watched countless be murdered. But what did the government of the U.S.A do? Yes, the United States helped destroy the Nazis. Yeah, they did.

Would it have been better if the Catholic church hadn't existed? You'll notice that it helped the Jews quite a bit (It didn't help the Gypsies, if I remember right, but at least they helped the Jews.)

The Torah is never made with a printing machine. It's all hand written, as are most other Judaic scriptures. They hid the artifacts and scriptures so as they would not be destroyed. They got Jews out to Sweden. Who cares if some Pope two hundred years ago was a John? (They were pretty much all Johns up until recent times.)

Other people would have done it, you say? No, they wouldn't have, because if they'd have been found out, they'd get killed. But the Priests could protect themselves from harm through their posistion.

In the United States, the Catholic Church decided, "Hey, let's not pretend that the Bible supports white supremism." while pretty much all the others around did.

So what if the pope in the 14 hundreds was a mobster?


But no, let's just forget it. Fuck the whole Catholic Church. I mean, I'm sure that YOU can put real pressure on the World Bank to end third world debt.

I'm sure that YOU can organize massive charitable organizations, get them funded, build schools, hire teachers, set up hospitals, raise orphans, put up rehab centers.

Everybody knows the Church used to and often still are crooks. But what the hell does it matter?

You'd rather throw out the whole Catholic Church. Well, brother, I know a whole lot of people who aren't going to become deists.

How is an interpretation of God's will that helps people Evil? Was I in the fucking crusades? Well damn, then why don't I have a loot? What the hell? You didn't steal it from me, did you?

Alienating the largest religious group in the world, telling them that "You're Evil no matter how much good you do." won't get anybody anywhere. And besides, I don't think they'd listen anyhow.

If "You should help people, and if not that, at least don't hurt anybody" is a simple interpretation of God's will that is above you, well then, my friend, and I know this isn't PC, but Deists aren't the kind of crowd I'd want running the show.

(P.S. Please don't take my being profane for being angry. I'm not at all angry or upset. On the contrary, I love to talk religion. Argueing is a lot of fun for me, even when it's not face to face.

Don't think just because I disagree with you that I dislike you. This is fun for me.)

[Floris]

Moreover, God is not the cause of all the death and terror brought upon the earth by christianity. Men are, and the mistakes of men. And as we all know man is not perfect.



But stop talking about all the terror from the catholic church.

Okay, the have killed hundreds of thousands of people for the so-called case of god: witches, moslims, jews, anything that was not conform their visions.

In those ages though, they were only a fraction of the people that died, millions died from diseases in that times, and hundreds of thousands died in wars.

Stop putting the blame of the christians of this age, the mistakes of the church leaders of medieval ages. If you blame them for that, that is the same as blaming the 80 million nowaday germans for what happened 60 years ago, and the 56 million french for what Napoleon did, and all the Spanish people for what Franco and his fascist regime did, and 1 and a half billion chinese for all the people Mao murdered.



It is perhaps not that good a comparison, but it should bring over my point. The catholic church leaders have done things wrong, but that is not a reason to condemn the christian faith and its followers for it.

Sure it is, you follow murderers and rapist. I will continue to do so. If anyoe else joins up with Nazi`s Ill blame them too. and yes it is...

It is different, you blame all members of the catholic community for what a few of that community have done. Likewise you SHOULD(really, if your reasoning is correct(which it obviously is not)) condemn all the 80 million now living germans for the atrocities of the World War.

Likewise, you should blame ALL Americans for Hiroshima and Nagasaki.



So, if that is your reasoning, I am rather blamed for some crusades and witchburnings 7 centuries ago, than for the killing in a few minutes of half a million japanese.

[Mykey]

I apologise, but, in my opinion, you commit an error. Let's discuss it.

[Nakranoth]

Moreover, God is not the cause of all the death and terror brought upon the earth by christianity. Men are, and the mistakes of men. And as we all know man is not perfect.

God is perfect though, correct? If God is perfect, then he cannot make a mistake, right? If God Cannot make mistakes, then everything it created is exactly the way it's supposed to be. God created Everything. Everything is exactly the way it's supposed to be.
If man is not exactly as God wants it to be, then God is not perfect. If man is exactly as God wants, then it has no reason to punish us.
God has been depicted as punishing humans in the Bible. Thus, there are two possibilities, The Bible was mistaken, or God is not perfect.
The Bible is the core basis for Christiandom. If God is Perfect, the Bible is mistaken in its interpretation of God. If the Bible is mistake, than anything based upon primarily upon it is mistaken aswell. Christiandom is flawed in it's interpretation of God. However, if God is perfect, then mankind belives what God wants it to belive right now, and thus we cannot be "evil", and as such, can not be the cause of divine retribution. Thus, God is the only cause.

If you find any faults in this train of logic, please tell me. I would like to know how anything in existence is ultimately caused by mankind.

[Piscator]

Perhaps god likes punishing and made mankind imperfect on purpose.

[Nakranoth]

That's a comforting thought... We have a Sadistic God.

[Floris]

God gave us our own free will.

If we would be perfect, we would do everything as he wants it and all we do would be predestinated. There would be no free will there.

God created us as humans, and humans are not perfect.

Anything else of your reasoning is void now, as you start from the wrong basis.




Mykey, if I say that I am a Roman Catholic, with faith in God, and in the Pope, but that I disapprove of the actions done by past church leaders. What do you say of me then? (I'm trying to prove your reasoning void here; as the God we follow is not the same as the leaders of the Church; as America and the Americans are not the same as its president and as Germany and the German people are not Hitler).

[Antichrist_Online]

Ever read the book Good Omens? That says it pretty well, Mankind has came up with things more Evil and more Good than hell and heaven ever could have on their own.