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Do you agree?

Poll ended at Sat Apr 22, 2006 9:23 pm

Disagree with 1, 2 & 3
15
48%
Disagree with 2 & 3
0
No votes
Disagree with 3
2
6%
I don't wanna take sides
6
19%
Agree with all
8
26%
 
Total votes: 31
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Nosajimiki
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Postby Nosajimiki » Mon Aug 21, 2006 2:45 am

Okay this is a question for the ummm... anti-maryters I guess I'll have to call ya'll. Do you believe (in general), that a maryter would knowingly lie or that they actaully believe in what they are dieing for, but view them as delueded or otherwize irrational. In either case do any of you feel that Jesus specifically chose to die believing what he was preaching(if you believe that Jesus may have feasably existed, either as a normal person or as a mircle worker). It seems Pie is convenced that that is the focus of our arguements, maybe I just havent read back far enough, but I haven't seen anyone specifically say Jesus was a blaitent lier.

I guess to answer my own question: I don't believe that Jesus would have probably viewed his life as unimportant enough to give it unless he thought he was doing God's work. That kind of thinking isn't consistant with the place and era to my understanding, but it is highly reasonable that his views were inspired by a combination of his firm Jewdaic beliefs and Virgilian heroism leading to the path he chose for himself. (If he did infact existed)
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formerly known as hf
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Postby formerly known as hf » Mon Aug 21, 2006 10:30 am

Pie's argument seems to be that 'eye witnesses' to Jesus' 'miracles' believed in him so much that they were prepared to martyr themselves.

Pie then goes on to use this as some form of proof that Jesus existed and did what he did - if people are prepared to die - it must be true he seems to say.
As I said, months ago when he was originally spoouting this rubbish, is that his argument is flawed.


All that martyrism shows is that people believed in Jesus and his so called miracles. People also believe they will be blessed with virgins if they take out the infidel western world. People were prepared to die for Charles Manson. Etc etc. All of these people, and more, call themselves martyrs. There have been martyrs all througout history.

My original argument, which I'l repeat - is that people martyred themselves for Mohammed, in the name of Islam, not very long after people martyred themselves for Jesus.
All of these people are martyrs - they eblieved in Jesus or Mohammed's teachings.

My question to pie - which he failed to answer -was, if eye-witness martyrs are proof of Jesus' miracles, why aren't eye-witness martyrs proof of Mohammed's divine inspiration?
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Mykey
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Postby Mykey » Mon Aug 21, 2006 10:34 am

You commit an error. Let's discuss.
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Zanthos
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Postby Zanthos » Mon Aug 21, 2006 4:46 pm

The only problem i have with comparing early islam with early christianity is that Mohammad converted people by invading their cities and destroying their idols, while Jesus and the deciples converted by preaching. early christianity was a very peaceful movement, for the most part, while early islam was very violent. (Mohammad actually brought Medina to war with Mecca becase Mecca wouldnt convert, if I remember correctly).
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Mykey
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Postby Mykey » Mon Aug 21, 2006 4:56 pm

Your phrase is very good
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Postby Zanthos » Mon Aug 21, 2006 5:06 pm

thats 2nd century and within the church itself, im talking about 50ad

(im also ignoring the feud between christians and jews one could say they had a legitimate reason to be angry.)
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Postby AoM » Mon Aug 21, 2006 9:49 pm

My knowledge of early Islamic history is hazy, but I recall hearing that Mohammad was in a kill or be killed political/religious situation. He had a message, and his enemies denied that message to stay in power themselves. So Mohammed fought them. He was outnumbered (dramatically so), but he won anyways. (Divine intervention, so the saying goes.)

The difference I guess you could say is that Jesus chose to be a martyr and get his message out through death, while Mohammad knew that his message would not survive unless he fought for it. They both did what they needed to get the message out.

If either of these men were truly inspired by God, then their actions are both noble and reasonable.
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Postby Nosajimiki » Mon Aug 21, 2006 11:51 pm

Oh if his arguement is about the earliest christian martyrs, then his arguement has even less wieght as they were never asked to change thier minds. After the great fire in Rome, Emporer Nero used them as a political scape goat the same way that Hitler used the Jews. Anyone in Rome who had ever proffessed themselves to believe in Christ (whether they claimed to have personally seen him or not) was charged with conspiericy against the Empire and punnished. The Roman persicution, especially in it's earlly stages, was not the same as Catholic Inquisition where recanting COULD have saved thier lives. They were convient to blame because the Jewish region of Rome did not burn because it was on the other side of the Tibers river and the christains were a small and disliked sect at the time. Given the general hatred of Nero and the growing diversity of belief systems in the Roman Empire, this made many earlly martyrs into un-intentional heros not unlike the Alamo did in the Spanish-American War. To the common-folk who did not understand the politics behind what was happeneing, this memicide was enough to convince them that these people were dieing for what they "knew" to be true as they have empacted Pie. This combination of politics and nievty actully boilsterd the rapid expansion of christianity.
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Postby Nalaris » Tue Aug 22, 2006 6:24 pm

Mykey wrote:
Zanthos wrote:The only problem i have with comparing early islam with early christianity is that Mohammad converted people by invading their cities and destroying their idols, while Jesus and the deciples converted by preaching. early christianity was a very peaceful movement, for the most part, while early islam was very violent. (Mohammad actually brought Medina to war with Mecca becase Mecca wouldnt convert, if I remember correctly).



This is complete crap, seriously man, search your history, before you make such assumptions. Early Christianity, attempted to eradicate any competing sect from the 2nd century A.D. on. :roll:


Note the word 'early christianity'. What Christ taught contradicts completely the Catholic actions in the Middle Ages.
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Postby Pie » Wed Aug 23, 2006 1:06 am

formerly known as hf wrote:Pie's argument seems to be that 'eye witnesses' to Jesus' 'miracles' believed in him so much that they were prepared to martyr themselves.

Pie then goes on to use this as some form of proof that Jesus existed and did what he did - if people are prepared to die - it must be true he seems to say.
As I said, months ago when he was originally spoouting this rubbish, is that his argument is flawed.


All that martyrism shows is that people believed in Jesus and his so called miracles. People also believe they will be blessed with virgins if they take out the infidel western world. People were prepared to die for Charles Manson. Etc etc. All of these people, and more, call themselves martyrs. There have been martyrs all througout history.

My original argument, which I'l repeat - is that people martyred themselves for Mohammed, in the name of Islam, not very long after people martyred themselves for Jesus.
All of these people are martyrs - they eblieved in Jesus or Mohammed's teachings.

My question to pie - which he failed to answer -was, if eye-witness martyrs are proof of Jesus' miracles, why aren't eye-witness martyrs proof of Mohammed's divine inspiration?


becaus they didn't create the islamic religion.

Now, if they did create the islamic religion, why would they buy into THERE OUN LIE!?!?!

Simple question.

If the deciples knew that they were lying, and they knew that by just telling the truth they could excape imprisinment torture and crusifixion, WHY WOULD THEY STILL LIE!?!

differen't wordings. If they created the origional lie, why would they buy into there oun hoax and lie? Why would they actually beleave in THERE OUN FALLSHOODS!?!?

WHY WOULD THEY STILL UPHOLD THERE LIES ABOUT CHRIST!?!

Also, religions don't just pop up out of nowhere. there has to be certain sercumstances to support them. Be it governmental, mony, or other, there has to be some support for a religion. EXPETIALLY if the religion is being persicuted to the extent that you have just stated. now what you must answere to me is WHERE DID IT COME FROME? Why in the world would these people go around teaching a forbiddon religion? Do they gain anything frome this?

And do not confuse this, with me saying that the general populous must have something to gain. No, I'm saying what did the DECIPLES have to gain. If they are really lying and they know that they are lying, WHY?

Also, that persicution of cristians started at 67A.D.

who knows how he delt with paul or whoever els that got there before 63A.D. As you know, after this persicution, in 112A.D. there was a similar persicution, exept in this one you do have the option of giving up your faith.

Also, all but one of the apostles had horibal deaths. They knew that they would die sometime or another. They could have given up what would have been a lie, they could stop any time, could they not? but, they didn't. They persisted until deaths. Why?
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Postby west » Wed Aug 23, 2006 2:45 am

Pie wrote:
becaus they didn't create the islamic religion.

Now, if they did create the islamic religion, why would they buy into THERE OUN LIE!?!?!

Simple question.

If the deciples knew that they were lying, and they knew that by just telling the truth they could excape imprisinment torture and crusifixion, WHY WOULD THEY STILL LIE!?!

differen't wordings. If they created the origional lie, why would they buy into there oun hoax and lie? Why would they actually beleave in THERE OUN FALLSHOODS!?!?

WHY WOULD THEY STILL UPHOLD THERE LIES ABOUT CHRIST!?!


omfg, Pie. Although Islam had already solidified into a religion by Mohommed's death (unlike by the time of Jesus' death), there was still plenty of persecution of Mohommed's disciples both before and after his death. Indeed, after his death, two main branches formed based on who people thought the successor was, and they had conflict within themselves.

Now, if one or both of the branches were wrong, as I'm sure you'd say they were, WHY WOULD THEY DIE FOR THEIR OWN FALSEHOODS?! ZOMG.

There's such a thing as getting caught up in a cause (as you yourself serve to show) without any regard for rational thought, and there's such a thing as believing your own hype, and there's such a thing as STUPIDLY. REFUSING. TO. CONSIDER. ANY. POINT. OF. VIEW. EXCEPT. THE. ONE. YOU. HEARD. FIRST.

People have martyred themselves for many, many crazier philosophies without those philosophies having to be true. Doesn't mean the person dying for them had to know; it just means they had to be willing to die for them. Such devotion is uncommon but not unheard of anywhere in the world.

I don't know why I come back to this thread, I really don't. It's forty pages of Pie talking in circles while the rest of us try to have a conversation.
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Zanthos
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Postby Zanthos » Wed Aug 23, 2006 4:14 am

As for following lies, all I can say is Scientology. Its a damn cult if I ever saw one. And if there are any scientologists here, save your money and get out, before you go broke and your kids die from being denied simple treatment because its 'unnatural'.
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You see a wild boar attack Person.

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Nosajimiki
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Postby Nosajimiki » Wed Aug 23, 2006 5:36 am

I know why I keep coming back! because sadly enough Pie has pressented a better arguement for Christainity than about anyone I've ever meet (sad I know, around here the term blind faith is taken practically as doctrine :? ) It might give some people a head-ach to listen to him pulling at straws, but damnit atleast he tries. It's been a long time since I've gotten to test my beliefes against someone who's arguement isn't "because it's true".
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formerly known as hf
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Postby formerly known as hf » Wed Aug 23, 2006 11:47 am

Nosajimiki wrote:It's been a long time since I've gotten to test my beliefes against someone who's arguement isn't "because it's true".
?
Have you actually considered pie's arguments?
That's all they are.

His excuses can easily be applied to opposing examples. It's a pretty crappy argument that can be just as easily applied to something else, thus contradicting itself.

But, he refuses to see that "because it's true"

ALL arguments for ALL religious beliefs and faith boil down to "because it's true" - people try to substantiate their beliefs, but at the end of the day, the only thing which upholds it is blind, ignorant faith.
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formerly known as hf
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Postby formerly known as hf » Wed Aug 23, 2006 12:37 pm

Pie wrote:If the deciples knew that they were lying, and they knew that by just telling the truth they could excape imprisinment torture and crusifixion, WHY WOULD THEY STILL LIE!?!

differen't wordings. If they created the origional lie, why would they buy into there oun hoax and lie? Why would they actually beleave in THERE OUN FALLSHOODS!?!?


Jesus lied
the disciples lied
they believed their own lies

Mohammed lied
his followers lied
they believed their own lies.

Charls Manson lied
his followers lied
they eblieved their own lies.

Actually, strike that first one.

Jesus never fucking existed.
The disciples are just figures of fiction.
There were no martyrs for Jesus. Jesus never rose from the grave because he was never born to die.
The Bible is just the product of Centuries of fictional flourishes, with a lot of adaptation for devious purposes of the Church instituions, on half-truth verbal histories, based, very loosely and innacurately on half-truth verbal histories.
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