American Steel needs help.

General chitchat, advertisements for other services, and other non-Cantr-related topics

Moderators: Public Relations Department, Players Department

User avatar
kroner
Posts: 1463
Joined: Sat Sep 27, 2003 4:39 pm
Location: new jersey...

Postby kroner » Sun Jan 18, 2004 3:09 pm

Ok... so reading that there was a ton I disagreed with, but I'm not going to write a novel so here's what stuck out most:
If healthcare is nationalized, the cost of healthcare will sky rocket due to the lost of competition and that will only be added into the taxes that will crush the middle class into poverty because they will be the sole people paying the taxes as most rich people get around taxes and the poor are excused from taxes. The quality of healthcare will decline to the point of uselessness due to there not being any competition and no one trying to sell a better service. You want an example of national healthcare look at the Veterans Memorial Hospitals and you will shake with fear.

I have an uncle who is a surgeon and used to be in the army and has first hand experience with VMHs. From what I've heard, the quality of care is very good. Although nationalized health care ends competition it's government run. The very government you go on and on praising. The one you can always change with a vote. If costs (in tax money, mind you, probably not out of people's pockets) become too high and quality of care becomes low, then people demand change and politicians give it to them. Isn't that how the government works according to you?

That's the sort of thing I see reoccuring again and again in your posts. You're such an idealist that you lose sight of how things actually work and so you contradict yourself left and right.
You say you want to help the Chinese people, but you also want to crush them with trade embargos
You say you want to help "liberate" the Chinese people, but you never say how you propose to do this. Instead you want to remove the US's influence completely.
You speak out against globalization, yet it is the source of positive change in governments like the Chinese.
Your ideals blind you. Then you make blind stabs at the air and cut a few inoccents.

I want a proposal on my desk by Monday outlining how you plan to make it all work! :D
DOOM!
Camino
Posts: 209
Joined: Tue Jul 15, 2003 1:13 pm
Location: Anti-Climactic Post Apocalyptic Studios

Postby Camino » Sun Jan 18, 2004 4:46 pm

The French system of healthcare is nationalised and it is ranked amongst the highest in the world, care to explain that little exception to the rule? Your taxes are high because your government borrows money from banks and it all has a knock on effect for everyone else. Right now you're starting on the road to a massive budget crisis, now what is going to cause tax rises?

You'll note and hopefully agree that we are but a small fraction of our nations populace and so are totally inadequate to express true sentiments for all, doesn't mean that'll stop us though.
You are quick to target the results of significant situations, based on a few significant events of the last fourty years, such as Communism. Your nation spent vast sums making sure that people didn't have the right to free speech or any of the freedoms you are so proud of, something I am keenly aware of should they ceace to exist, all in the name of democracy.
Did the populace do anything then? Of course not, they let it continue and even reveled in the fact they were stoppping the spread of the Communist hoard, of course to the people Latin America having American soldiers train their own countrymen in effective ways of tourture is hardly a complementery method. Every generation and every leadership has to pay for the mistakes of the past and to claim that because they were from the past they can't be held against the newest group is just ignoring the matter. We have to deal with consequences and more often the not it creates more because we (the people) expect a great deal from those who 'represent' us and as of yet in my brief glance at international politics I have yet to see a voting populace take action against those who made knowing mistakes in the name of image, actually taking real action is seemingly beyond us all.
The people protest here and there but we are mainly content to comment over the dinner-table or send an angry letter to some politician who couldn't make it big, all very novel expressions of freedom and of being the ones in control, not directly yet supposedly the ones with the reigns, such great doubts never really make it in to the open. Not one person has ever run for a political position and been honest that they would make mistakes and that things would go wrong but that they would always answer the call for action but never act for themselves.

That is my point about politicians of the great west, our representatives are not selfless, they are neither for us or for anyone else unless it aids them in some fashion, perhaps I should run for local government but then again I am as easily corruptable, biased, ignorant and human as the rest. Yet I can but try to act because it is the sensible choice to make not because it is the only choice we can make.

I need not tell you or anyone else the foul acts undertaken by the british Empire in the name of progress or of European civilisation, something you colonists have adapted rather well in to something much nicer and appealing then a physical empire of borders and boundaries, instead you can simply lean across to examine how this will hurt your economy.
Privatise it all I say, in the name of free trade and honest competition, you want free trade but you can't stand it when the competition will go lower then you're prepared to do so. Live with your actions, your steel industry collapses big deal at least it won't bring your entire country down by crashing the value of the dollar or causing mass riots because there isn't money for people to have food.
I guest what really disgusts me is not you or anyone in particular but rather that people will die because of something so pointless as money We can't fund medical research because there isn't the money, we can't help these people from working in conditions we would hesitate sending a multiple murdered in to because we can't afford to do anything else, we can't help people living in terrible housing or none at all because we can't afford to keep then healthy and give them an oppertunity to live.

Rk>The first part of what I said was intended directly for you the rest of it was a generalisation on multiple views expressed earlier in the topic. Tell me though, do you examine the products you buy? Do you protest against corporations moving to other countries and campaign for greater regulation of other countries, raising wages and such? You are still so proud to talk about your ancestors but I'm not sure I could claim how honourable they were based on their actions. I don't honour ancestors from hundereds of years ago because their actions were so single-minded and brutal that it makes me wonder if they should be recognised as no better then the oppressive regimes they fought against. I have yet to see any cause that did not make a grievous error that could of been prevented had it not been for the society that they lived amongst, ever the rightous and the brave.

I never said that America as a whole had it easy, I said it was built on the back of others and you took that to mean other countries well I am more then aware of the destitute in America, I am also very aware that they will never be helped because it isn't economical to provide them with health care, it isn't economical to train them to work, it isn't media friendly to just have them shipped abroad so we'll just ignore them and focus on something else. That's right we'll just forget about them and focus on something else that people can get angry about!
Those people are unemployed because you voters won't think about doing anything to help them and it sure isn't going to be any representatives doing anything because you haven't told them to but neither has the media so it would look bad if they suddenly started doing something without a wonderful media campaign to show it off!

You wanna know why the very rich aren't paying super taxes? it's because they have lawyers and interest groups who BUY LEADERSHIP they buy it and when they need a little break they get it and everyone goes happy, the lawyer is happy, the company is happy and so is the official. Now why don't you figure it out? If anything in government to do directly with the people is to complex for the person proposing it to understand it isn't going to work. If you don't get it (this is for everybody now) and it doesn't make sense and you can vote, it's a crucial factor here, then you have to do something for all the people who won't! You have use and abuse the media to get the coverage so every lazy non-voting loudmouth gets the message. It isn't enough to simply say a few words over and over you have to make it matter to them, you have to find the nastiest piece of life and shove it in their face so that they can't pretend it doesn't exist.
You won't freedom and justice well why don't you go find someone to buy it for you because at the rate things are going it will probably be on the shelves long before anyone steps up to deal with the basic issues at stake.
Camino
Posts: 209
Joined: Tue Jul 15, 2003 1:13 pm
Location: Anti-Climactic Post Apocalyptic Studios

Postby Camino » Sun Jan 18, 2004 4:50 pm

I can't do this anymore, I can't keep going over the same material with you people. I am the first to admit that I love to debate an issue with the world but when it comes to matters like this...it makes me unable to keep cool and neutral about it all.
When you can't stay objective about your debate it isn't worth debating because it become an argument over egos and stupid points that don't count to anybody. Continue this as I know you all will but I won't be as it is something to close to my ideals to even try to analyse.
User avatar
Sho
Posts: 1732
Joined: Fri Dec 26, 2003 4:05 am

Postby Sho » Mon Jan 19, 2004 3:16 am

It looks like kroner and Camino have made most of my points. I think I'll just hide before I get caught in the crossfire. :D

But first I want to say my part.
I don't think there is anything wrong with the American government. I think it works as well as we can realistically hope for any government to function. For the most part, American government today follows the plan set forth by James Madison and his contemporaries. It is true that the rich have more of a voice in our government than they really should, but they haven't driven us off a cliff yet and there are enough limits on their influence that they probably won't do so in the near future.
Overall, I think that privatization is a good thing. I think there may be certain sectors for which government control is better (such as health care and airlines), but I don't know enough about them to really argue either side.
I don't think that the U.S. is trying to take over the world. President Bush has certainly made some stupid and self-centered decisions, but I doubt that even he has American hegemony as a goal.

On the other hand, I think that saying "China is evil, its citizens are slaves and it's going to enslave us too" is a trifle alarmist. Even if that were so, what would we do about it? Place an embargo on Chinese products? Such an action would have unintended consequences and would also hurt the Chinese people.
Also, why this focus on China? There are other nations we can argue about. Are we arguing about nations that hurt our economies? Try the OPEC nations. Are we arguing about oppressive regimes? North Korea is by most measures worse than China. There are dozens of nations with problems, and there's no need to restrict this discussion to just one of them.
As I understand it, Camino (and anyone else who is attacking America) is not attacking the concepts of liberty and freedom. The problem is that the American government does not provide those rights and that Americans are therefore hypocritical in bashing other nation for not having liberty. I don't necessarily agree with this point of view; I'm just making sure that's clear.
User avatar
Darth Tiberius
Posts: 374
Joined: Fri Oct 17, 2003 10:06 am
Location: Plymouth, England

Postby Darth Tiberius » Mon Jan 19, 2004 5:40 pm

The French health care system isn't as good as the French makes out. The French health care system may have good cleansliness but it is all a ploy by Jacques Chirac. Chirac is a cold minipulating monster. As bad as Le Pen. And I thought the candidates for the UK elections were bad. Not as bad as the Chirac elections. *sighs* But that is another topic.

And in response to RKlenseth:

Embargos were good when Cuba was a threat in terms of WofMD. But now that they are really suffering to feed the people they need foreign investment. That is why the US should lift embargos on Cuba.

Also the US should lift sanctions on countries that have now started to show massive improvement of their stance on WofMD but they should be careful monitered. Libya is a prime example of a country that admitted wrong and is doing something about it. Lets just hope their President with the weird name doesn't go back to his old ways.
All hail his Purple Majesty!!!
User avatar
Sho
Posts: 1732
Joined: Fri Dec 26, 2003 4:05 am

Postby Sho » Tue Jan 20, 2004 2:25 am

I don't think the current focus on weapons of mass destruction is worth it. Libya does seem to be behaving well, but there is some evidence that their nuclear weapons program may not have been working out well in any case. Iraq apparently had not had a large active WMD program since the first Persian Gulf War. North Korea apparently has nuclear weapons, has the psychotic leadership capable of using them, and is making more, but none of the efforts to get them to stop thier program has shown much chance of succeeding. In other words, with the possible exception of Libya, Bush and Co.'s effort to eliminate weapons of mass destruction has not had any major effects, nor is it likely to have any in the near future.
I do not think that sanctions are an effective tool in any situation. Take North Korea for an example. Sanctions have played a large part in making North Korea the non-electrified, starving wasteland it is now. Meanwhile, Kim Jong Il lives comfortably in his palace with actresses, sushi and television. And what did the embargos on Cuba ever accomplish in the first place?
User avatar
new.vogue.nightmare
Posts: 1607
Joined: Fri Jul 25, 2003 8:55 am
Location: Right behind you. No, really.
Contact:

Postby new.vogue.nightmare » Tue Jan 20, 2004 4:18 am

Yeah, if only a little money comes into the economy of a country like that, the leader will hoard it all for him/herself. If there's a whole bunch of it coming through, the corrupt 'leader' might actually let some of it reach the people! :D
Sicofonte wrote:SLURP, SLURP, SLURP...


<Kimidori> esperanto is sooooo sexy^^^^
User avatar
quidit
Posts: 129
Joined: Sat Nov 29, 2003 9:43 pm
Location: Peoria, Illinois

Postby quidit » Thu Jan 22, 2004 9:52 pm

Well here is a update of events at Keystone.

We put the contract amendments to a vote and the co. said bankruptcy is likely if we voted it down...Well we voted it down 460 to 372. So now the co. is in the news heavily and it's a pretty big debate as to if we did the right thing. I think we did, The co. came out in the paper today and said they are still going to fight to stay running through other cost cutting measures. Huh...just before the vote the word was that they already had the papers ready to file bankruptcy if we voted no.

The big stink around the news is that some people think that if they close down that the town it is in will become a ghost town and some of the people there are saying that we were stingy and it would be our faults if the co. closes down. Well I say if it wasent for the mismanagment of the co. we would not be here in the first place.

Anyway It was a tough choice for me to make,vote yes and lose $1 dollar a hour, 1 holiday, a large increase in medical cost, increase in deductible in medical cost, company matching less in the 401 k, and a few other things, and worry about how would I afford a accident should one occur and tightning my budget belt even further. Or vote no a face a co. closer and have to look for other work. I might have voted yes if the ammendments wernt so extream and we just gave up a few things two years ago to help them out. 2 years ago we gave them a wage freeze till 06,started to pay for our medical..$175 a month and a few other small things that we did not want to, they also got a 10 million dollar loan from the city of peoria. Then they come back two years later and want more from us, whos to say they would not have done it again this time. Well I thought long and hard about how to vote and I dont want to lose my job but sometimes you have to sacrifice to stand up for whats right.

I hope they will continue talks with our union and come up with a better ammendment, I am not totally against consessions, I am willing to give a little more to keep my job and help out but it has to be realistic. There are a few guys that the ammendment would have caused them to go bankrupt because of how much medical they are using and a pay cut on top of that.

The sad part is things like this are hapinig all over the country.

Thanks for the support from some of you......and wow that was some serious debating. Some good points and bad on both sides, very interesting. I dont quite have the knowledge or facts to back up my ideas so I didnt get involved.

Thanks for readin and best of luck in your studys, work, and lifes.
User avatar
berserk9779
Posts: 190
Joined: Thu Jan 22, 2004 9:11 pm
Location: Argentina

Postby berserk9779 » Thu Jan 22, 2004 10:07 pm

Steel only opened the way.
Old america is all doomed and many other american products will follow this fall.
That is at least what I belive and HOPE
David
Posts: 696
Joined: Mon Dec 15, 2003 5:50 am
Location: Maryland/America

Postby David » Wed Feb 04, 2004 3:21 am

Geez... people... I used to write 30 page posts like that but it basically boils down to this... Um... one of the HQ's of the multinational corporations is America... well America is one of its pawns anyway, it manipulates American government to be the "enforcer" wing of their vast global empires... the low-income countries are the peasants working in the fields that the corporate raiders raid.... and when the peasants realize what is going on and try to do something the multinationals pull a few strings to bring the in some cases unwitting "enforcer" Our widespread economic prosperity is largely due to the leavings and droppings of the feast of greed of the multinationals... cause they can't carry it all... heh...

Many elected officials and some policy people don't believe they are being manipulated in this way, but they are... and it isn't some vast conspiracy... its kind of just... the power-elite is kind of just... a community of pigs that happened to congregate together, attracted to eachother by their repugnant ways...
west
Posts: 4649
Joined: Mon Aug 25, 2003 5:23 pm

Postby west » Wed Feb 04, 2004 7:29 pm

Get your tinfoil hats on, they're monitoring our brainwaves!
I'm not dead; I'm dormant.
David
Posts: 696
Joined: Mon Dec 15, 2003 5:50 am
Location: Maryland/America

Postby David » Wed Feb 04, 2004 8:23 pm

No, they have increased the frequencies... you have to use sauce pots now.
User avatar
new.vogue.nightmare
Posts: 1607
Joined: Fri Jul 25, 2003 8:55 am
Location: Right behind you. No, really.
Contact:

Postby new.vogue.nightmare » Wed Feb 04, 2004 8:38 pm

Burgers, anyone?
Sicofonte wrote:SLURP, SLURP, SLURP...




<Kimidori> esperanto is sooooo sexy^^^^
west
Posts: 4649
Joined: Mon Aug 25, 2003 5:23 pm

Postby west » Wed Feb 04, 2004 9:32 pm

cow brain burger?

Image
I'm not dead; I'm dormant.
User avatar
new.vogue.nightmare
Posts: 1607
Joined: Fri Jul 25, 2003 8:55 am
Location: Right behind you. No, really.
Contact:

Postby new.vogue.nightmare » Wed Feb 04, 2004 10:45 pm

I'm guessing you're on the same LoR/Bob powered page I'm on?
Sicofonte wrote:SLURP, SLURP, SLURP...




<Kimidori> esperanto is sooooo sexy^^^^

Return to “Non-Cantr-Related Discussion”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest