American Steel needs help.

[rklenseth]

rklenseth>

One word: Cuba.
Do embargos ever work? No. Do embargos sink the general population into poverty? Yes.

When a government like Cuba's has it's income cut down, it's the common people who are the first to hurt by it. Why should Castro give up one of his cars when he can just feed people less?
But then again, this is hardly a valid analogy, because China isn't really comparable to Cuba anymore, like you seem to think. China today is not China 30 years ago. Mao is dead. The economic system is mostly capitalism and China is slowly industrializing. Many predict that China will become the most power country in the world economically. The government is still very controlling, but the shift towards capitalism makes it hardly necessary or possible to stop individuals from prospering.

Well, Cuba is very different from China and currently it seems like most people don't want to live under the Communist State there. Plus, I believe certain European countries get by the embargo anyhow so Cuba does have an income. Just doesn't come from the US. And if Castro really stood for the ideals he fought for then he would give up the car. Just goes to show how much of a hypocrite he is.

The problem with China, though, is that it isn't a democracy that allows the voices of the masses to be heard. The people in China cannot vote for their leaders to seats of power to fight for their rights or a better way of life. That is a big difference between America and China. During the 1900's America, the masses were able to vote for leaders that brought reform to stop the abuses of businesses and so on. China doesn't have that. Unless they get some very idealistic leader up there who really cares for his or her people then you aren't going to ever see that unless the Chinese people revolt and overthrow their government and replace it with a democracy that would allow such changes.

[Sho]

China has been becoming less totalitarian over the years, and the spread of information technologies such as the Internet and cellphones can only hasten this change. As dissidents gain the power to spread their messages widely without being censored or locked up, the government will be forced to loosen up.

Currently, not very many of the Chinese people are actually opposed to the top level state executives. At the Tiananmen Square protest, most of the protesters weren't against the Politburo, they were against the corrupt lower level officials who (as they thought) the Politburo ministers didn't know about. And remember, these were relatively educated people. The masses probably knew less. If the dissidents who really know how bad the government is get through to those masses, I think China could change rather quickly.

[rklenseth]

I agree to an extent but what are the people going to fight back with. The government has weapons, the people have nothing. They would have to be pretty damn lucky. And if you have a very immoral person at the head of the Chinese government at the time of such a rebellion, I don't think that that person wouldn't have any problem with slaughtering a few million people to stay in power. Eventually, the people will see the slaughter and give up because they know it is helpless to resist. And any rebellion in China would not get the support of Europe or America because we know what the effects will be on our economies and if we do support and the Chinese government does quell the rebellion then China would be very quick to discontinue to an extent that doesn't hurt them trade with countries supporting the economy. I think that the only way the Chinese people would have a chance to win would be if America or another European country was to actually join in on the fight with the Chinese people but then we would risk nuclear war (God have mercy on ourselves should that day come) and there will be a bunch of other countries that decry such a war as some imperialistic bullshit or world domination plan by countries supporting Chinese rebellion. So it is almost like a win lose situation. Either way, you win. Either way, you lose.

[kroner]

There are ways to fight without violence. China has come a long way without any sort of revolution or even widespread disloyalty to the government. A shift in the public mindset forces the government to change too. Not simply for fear of revolt but also because the leaders of the country change over time, causing a shift in the government's mindset as well. The leaders of China are not inherently evil.

I think the Soviet Union is a good example of how a government can peacefully lose it's totalitarian grip, although I suspect that in China things will continue to be much more gradual.

[Camino]

Within the next 15 years, at the latest, China wil become the most powerful nation in Asia and the Far East militarily but also economicaly, the Chinese economy is growing enourmously with mass-industrialisation.

Rk>You talk about China and you compare about how great and free America is but in truth what freedoms do you really have if election after election the same types of people are elected? It's the same in all the western nations, it is the politician who gets in, names don't matter because they are all part of the same family. There sole objective to do anything they can to stay in power as long as possible and if it happens to do something practical for all then that's just a bonus.

Everyone>The people most motivated for power are those most unsuitable to be in its possesion. Time and time again mistakes are made by politicians but do we stop and think that this leader is not really so very different from the last one? Of course not we put our faith in the next candidate who turns out to be no better then all the rest! How can you be so proud of your great nation when it is built upon the backs of everybody else. You complain that companies are going abroad, foreign imports and cheap labour! Well deal with it, it is high time that you learned that America can't get it's own way and neither can any country on this planet.

You complain that your health care sucks...oh but of course it's so much better because the government doesn't pay for any of it, you'd rather have cheap fuel then a social welfare system. Cheap everything regardless of where it was made and under what conditions! Don't talk about freedom, liberty, democracy and any of that other rubbish that is so keenly espoused by the 'few' it is just bloody lies every single word. You are no more free and just then the nations you scorn and complain at because they have cheap labour, relaxed laws and no taxes, yet you got right on making sure that only your own backyard is covered.

Face it, if you want cheap products to go in your fancy homes and wonderful fancy health care from your brilliant high-powered companies you'll just have to accept that millions of people are going to have to live in bloody awful conditions. But guess what? I don't think anyone us will have to much difficulty in doing that will we? Look at yourselves and your world and honestly ask yourself if you would rather live at a lower level just so others you don't know and won't meet can live better, I am well within the realms of reality when I say you wouldn't want that to happen. Why am I right about that? 100 years of intervention, policy and 'free trade' have demonstrated that you'll accept the lies your told so you can live comfortable lives at the expense of anybody.

Sure, China spends huge amounts on the military but it doesn't seriously expect people to belive that it is a workers paradise but I can name a few countries who claim freedom, liberty and justice for all and seriously expect everyone to belive every word that is said with such pride and reverence.
You disgust me, you really do, you seriously belive you deserve to live better then anybody else because your ancestors died for a cause.

[The Lurker]

If you said something denouncing the government like that in some other hypothetical country run by a military dictatorship instead of a democracy, you might get reported and lined up in front of a firing squad.

Fortunately, you are talking about the U.S., so it will be your anger-fueled rant, instead of your body, that will be shot to pieces.

[Sho]

I agree with Camino, though I wouldn't be quite so extreme. I basically don't think democracy and free speech is all it's cracked up to be, though it is usually preferable to despotism and is, in my opinion, the most successful system of government yet. I wouldn't say I'm disgusted by the views of the people posting here, but listening to all the "we are good, they are bad, nothing is relative" rhetoric gets irritating after a while.

@rklenseth: I wasn't suggesting that the Chinese would acutally rebel. I doubt that there would ever be a huge bloody uprising. Rather, I think that eventually nonviolent opposition, or threat thereof, would force the leaders to make concessions.

[Sho]

I posted that before I saw Last Laugh's post. Now I guess it's two against the world, eh?

But to answer the point you were making:
Yes, it is true that if I or Camino wrote a similar piece opposing dictatorship in a dictatorship we would probably be executed. However, the point I was making was not so much that democracy is a fraud than that democracy isn't some sort of magical thing that makes a nation good, affluent and righteous. I think democracy works fine in the United States. However, I don't think that we should rant against other nations merely on the basis of their form of government. We should not think, "If we force China to become democratic, its people will immediately become happy and affluent, they will gain equal rights and the world will be a better place."

[Missy]

I agree with camino and I live here. I wonder when the rest of the country will notice "free speech isn't all its cracked up to be" lol
In fact I applaud the speech.
Takes guts to say something like that on a board crammed full of Americans. (I dont expect that there wont be backlash or an even more verbose reply to something so right head on. )

But don't worry, not every one thinks youre a terrorist for thinking that way Camino.

[Sho]

That makes two Americans and twelve laughing smileys!

[The Lurker]

I don't think that democracy is a magical thing that makes a country good, affluent, and righteous. As far as I can tell, no-one who has posted thus far thinks that, American or otherwise. So what is the point of screaming at us that we're greedy assh---s that don't care if the rest of the world suffers as long as we are well off?

American democracy is far from a perfect system. It is riddled with flaws from the local governments all the way to the top. I don't think that everything about it is a lie, but it still needs a lot of fixing.

There. Now you know how I feel about it. I held these views before Camino's post, yet I was still included in her "Everyone:" rant. Maybe to some, scolding people for views they don't hold is brave, but I don't think so.

[kroner]

if you want to find out what various people on the forum think of America, check out this thread (if you have a lot of time to kill.... )
http://www.cantr.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=638

[rklenseth]

In America, we elect our leaders to represent us as a people. Obviously the majority is ruled and America has trampled the rights of the minority but over time America has changed and has created laws and amendments where the majority cannot trample the rights of the minority. The rights set forth by the Founding Fathers give the people the right to control the government by electing our leaders to represent us. The very thing that Great Britain refused to give us. Freedom is what it is cracked up to be. Without freedom, you would be nothing but a slave to someone else's whim. Without liberty, you are just another piece of flesh on this Earth. But in America, liberty and freedom are what keeps us from being slaves, from being mindless flesh to something else. We have the right to think in our own way, to speak in our own way, to not mortgage our minds to others, to not be our fathers or mother or be judged upon by who our family was, the right to live in the fashion we wish, the right to pray to what God or worship what religion we wish. Such fundamental rights are forbidden to half if not most of the population of this world. And instead of attacking those countries that deny such liberties and freedoms, the very liberties and freedoms that you are here practicing on this forum, you attack America for what purpose is unknown to me. Frankly, I am getting sick of such bullshit. And frankly I know that liberty and freedom is right and these dictatorships are wrong or any government or even culture that refuses the basic liberties and freedoms of humankind. That is my right to express myself in such a way.

Last time I checked, politicians were human beings and make mistakes just like every other human being. I would rather live in a democracy with corrupted politicians than a dictatorship like China or Cuba or the many others that exist out there because there I am nothing. I can vote out those corrupted politicians and elect new leaders to represent me. In China and Cuba or any of those other governments that deny their people liberty, those very people do not have a chance at something better or creating a better future for their children.

How can you be so proud of your great nation when it is built upon the backs of everybody else. You complain that companies are going abroad, foreign imports and cheap labour! Well deal with it, it is high time that you learned that America can't get it's own way and neither can any country on this planet.

Built upon the backs of others? How about built upon our backs. Where do you get his notion that everyone in America lives in luxury? It goes to show how little you know about America and where America has come from and where it has gone. What I am complaining about is that American companies are moving overseas to places like China thus supporting the dictorial government in China which denies its people even the basic of liberties and freedoms and takes away jobs from Americans who need to support their families and all in the name of fucking profit for a few. That is what I am complaing about yet you think you know me enough to say this is all about American dominance of the world. And you are correct, Americans are dealing with it. They electing the leaders that want such reform. There is a growing movement in America that I partly agree with and partly disagree with that wants America to retreat from the world stage, become self sufficient or pretty damn close to it, and tell the rest the world to deal with your own shit. I do not think that America should do that but I only think good things for America if it does but many bad things for the rest of the world. Do you really want China to be the superpower of the world? The day that happens will be the day that a lot of people's hopes and dreams will be dashed away by the clanking of the chains of slavery.

You complain that your health care sucks...oh but of course it's so much better because the government doesn't pay for any of it, you'd rather have cheap fuel then a social welfare system. Cheap everything regardless of where it was made and under what conditions! Don't talk about freedom, liberty, democracy and any of that other rubbish that is so keenly espoused by the 'few' it is just bloody lies every single word. You are no more free and just then the nations you scorn and complain at because they have cheap labour, relaxed laws and no taxes, yet you got right on making sure that only your own backyard is covered.

I never complained that our healthcare sucks. I do agree that there can be and should be reform but I do agree that there should not be a nationalized healthcare because it would do more harm rather than good. If healthcare is nationalized, the cost of healthcare will sky rocket due to the lost of competition and that will only be added into the taxes that will crush the middle class into poverty because they will be the sole people paying the taxes as most rich people get around taxes and the poor are excused from taxes. The quality of healthcare will decline to the point of uselessness due to there not being any competition and no one trying to sell a better service. You want an example of national healthcare look at the Veterans Memorial Hospitals and you will shake with fear. That and in time, with the driving of the middle class into poverty due to high taxes the government will lose more and more money that will lead to cuts in the budget that will most likely be in the healthcare thus reducing the quality of healthcare even further and many other government programs.

And as I have said before, instead of the government pouring money into programs like welfare it should rather pour money into programs that helps the poor find jobs and get them on their feet. Welfare isn't helping anyone. It is keeping the poor where they are, poor. It is keeping the middle class at paying unnecessary taxes to support failed programs like welfare. I do believe that welfare should still exist but that those that aren't doing anything at all, not even trying to do something about being poor and those that use the system to get a free ride through life, should get cut out.

You are also now accusing me of wanting the cheap labor in China just because the products are cheap. Haven't I said before that I do not agree and that I do care? Isn't that what I have been arguing about? I do care what conditions many of these products from China or other places made in and I want that to change. What I have been arguing is how that change will happen? Unlike, Kroner, I do not agree that the change will happen over time with gradual change. Even so it would still be too slow and denying any people of the basic freedoms and liberties is wrong and should not be tolerated. Unless the Chinese people are lucky enough to get a Mikhail Gorbachev like the Soviets and their satellite states then there is a possibility. But why should the Chinese people wait for such a person to come along or luck to be bestowed upon them with the government suddenly falling over. Things in China will remain the way they are and for the free world to stand by and watch it happen is wrong.

I think America should do something but whatever it does there are always people that think that there is some sort of conspiracy behind the curtains. If you expect America to do something then you are going to have to give a little trust sometimes. Just a little though. It is always good to be a little distrustful just in case the person or persons do prove to be just that.

Face it, if you want cheap products to go in your fancy homes and wonderful fancy health care from your brilliant high-powered companies you'll just have to accept that millions of people are going to have to live in bloody awful conditions. But guess what? I don't think anyone us will have to much difficulty in doing that will we? Look at yourselves and your world and honestly ask yourself if you would rather live at a lower level just so others you don't know and won't meet can live better, I am well within the realms of reality when I say you wouldn't want that to happen. Why am I right about that? 100 years of intervention, policy and 'free trade' have demonstrated that you'll accept the lies your told so you can live comfortable lives at the expense of anybody.

I don't really call my home that fancy. But I don't care what the product is as long as it works and didn't come from the use of cheap labor. And I don't accept it and it's about high time that change is to happen. What I am trying to do is figure out how best this change can come and has been the very thing that I have been arguing.

What I believe in is equality of opportunity and equality of liberty and freedom. None of which most Chinese people have in the first place. And you do not know my mind so why do you think that you can claim that I wouldn't want these people to have the opportunities to have a better life? I'm not going to lie and say that the American government hasn't lied or not have done any wrong. It has but what you fail to understand is that you cannot hold the government today for what happened 100 years ago, 50 years ago, 20 years ago, 10 years or even 5 years ago. Due to elections the American government is constantly changing. Some might not be as good as the last and some better and some even worse. But that is the responsibility of the American people to hold these leaders to what they do and to their word. If they do wrong then they get voted out of the office next term, provided that the majority of the Americans believe said leader wrong. If it is really bad then Americans could have the represented leader taken out of office and replaced with a new one. President Richard Nixon is an example of that and if he hadn't resigned then chances are that he would have been taken out of office. The recent California recall is also an example of that. Plus, to blame the whole American Government on what happens is wrong. Remember, the American Government is set up with three different levels of government, each level with three distinct branches of government. Not every part is to blame and often times never agrees thus checks and balances of that each level can make and each branch can make against one another. The American Government is not ran by one man or group of men but thousands if not millions of elected representatives and the millions more of public servants who have dedicated their life to public service. To even believe that the American Government is ran by a few is total bullshit and proves your little understanding of the American Government. The people in the United States elect the leaders they want to represent them at all levels and all branches of government. If a leader doesn't do as the people want them to then that elected representative will most likely lose his job of representing the people that elected him. Everything that an elected representative does, what laws/policies he or she supports, is recorded and open to the public. If the public doesn't like what they see then they get rid of the person and replace them with someone new. A lot of the offices in the American Government has term limits so as to protect the American Government further from having one person or group of people taking total power. It is also a tradition started by America's first president, George Washington, because he believed that America needs constant change and one way of that is to have different leaders often.

Sure, China spends huge amounts on the military but it doesn't seriously expect people to belive that it is a workers paradise but I can name a few countries who claim freedom, liberty and justice for all and seriously expect everyone to belive every word that is said with such pride and reverence.
You disgust me, you really do, you seriously belive you deserve to live better then anybody else because your ancestors died for a cause.

I don't think anyone should deserve to live a better life except for what they make for themselves. My ancestors died for they died for and if I believe their cause was just then I will honor their deeds and sacrifice but that is as far as that goes. I live my own life and I have my own causes. I honor what my ancestors did and where it has put me but I will not be judged by my who my ancestors were as no one should. I will be judged by who I am and by what I do. I want to live a better life, who doesn't, but I do not want the liberties and freedoms of others to be sacrificed because of it. But there is only so much one human being can do. I have a lifetime to live so perhaps I will be able to make sure that freedom and liberty is not denied to anyone in the world.

"Give me liberty or give me death!"

[rklenseth]

I don't think that democracy is a magical thing that makes a country good, affluent, and righteous. As far as I can tell, no-one who has posted thus far thinks that, American or otherwise. So what is the point of screaming at us that we're greedy assh---s that don't care if the rest of the world suffers as long as we are well off?

American democracy is far from a perfect system. It is riddled with flaws from the local governments all the way to the top. I don't think that everything about it is a lie, but it still needs a lot of fixing.

There. Now you know how I feel about it. I held these views before Camino's post, yet I was still included in her "Everyone:" rant. Maybe to some, scolding people for views they don't hold is brave, but I don't think so.

Anything created by humans won't ever be perfect. Democracy and American democracy at that will always be flawed. To say otherwise is to live in an unrealistic world.

Now an unrelated question, how do you know that Camino is a woman? I don't remember Camino ever saying what sex she was or wasn't. Unless I missed something.

And I applaud Camino for what he/she (should I say 'it' in this case) said. The one thing that makes democracy, freedom, and liberty work are that different viewpoints can be heard (or seen in this case) and held. I would just like to continue to point out that half if not most of population of the world do not have that very basic right.

[Missy]

lol, wow I wasn't predicting that big of a reply.

Yeah, couldn't help myself, this topic gets me all wound up. Sorry for all twelve, oops make that thirteen smileys.

For general purposes, I hope you don't think i was laughing @ people posting. The points being made themselves are what humor me.
But now, Im going to refrain from posting. I like politics, and this discussion is very interesting, but I tend to make an ass of myself when I try to make points. *Keeps reading* This is the best discussion I've seen on here so far I hope you all keep this thread going.