Gayness: Nature or Nurture?
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This is such a dangerous subject, especially because, despite the poll indicating otherwise there must be a few more gay players than those that are 'out'
I believe nurture... but so much nuture occurs before we can even speak that in many ways its foolish to try and sepparate them..
Anyway this could be a long and protacted argument. Don't forget the cultural element, there are still countries where it is illegal. Some places don't have the history of reform and dialogue to be able to discuss this in an informed way...
I believe nurture... but so much nuture occurs before we can even speak that in many ways its foolish to try and sepparate them..
Anyway this could be a long and protacted argument. Don't forget the cultural element, there are still countries where it is illegal. Some places don't have the history of reform and dialogue to be able to discuss this in an informed way...
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I think the polls are only appearing like that because people who don't have a problem with gays for the most part are ignoring it. I know I am. It's an arguement that has gone on for so long with no group every truly persuading the other(Just like all other prejudices). I'm not gonna even vote. All prejudices will continue to exist, and no one is every gonna change that. We all have a little bit of prejudice and racism inside of us, although we don't always like to admit it. For people who think being gay is wrong, well guess what, your not going to see gays disappearing any time soon. Especially since being gay doesn't have to do with race, thus genocide won't work.
and people who don't think being gay is wrong, well guess what, there are always gonna be people around who think that. And once again, genocide won't work. 


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It's both of them like every other human personality feature. And Pie's right Aids isn't to do with sexual preference, it's to do with canabalism in primates and humans consuming the canabalistic primates (not sure if they were apes or monkeys). There is nothing wrong with the people who choose that lifestyle, hell on an overpopulated planet it might be beneficial. The only thing wrong is Stupidity, not ignorance, but people been given the oppertunity to learn and not taking it. Shame we can't kill all the stupid people.
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I voted nature. Perhaps it is both, but I'd say only in the first couple years of development.
Simply because I know some s who are gay, yet they didn't even know what homosexuality was until way later on in their life. They did what other straight kids at their schools did, like having a friend, etc., but they never felt any real pleasure in doing it. Thus, I don't think that they could consciously decide to be gay if they really didn't know what it was.
Perhaps there are certain subtleties's (sp?) in raising a child that would make him or her homosexual (kind of like what Seko was talking about), but for the individual to make a true conscious decision... I'd have to go no.
Personally, I'd want to be bisexual, but there's no way that's going to happen.
Simply because I know some s who are gay, yet they didn't even know what homosexuality was until way later on in their life. They did what other straight kids at their schools did, like having a friend, etc., but they never felt any real pleasure in doing it. Thus, I don't think that they could consciously decide to be gay if they really didn't know what it was.
Perhaps there are certain subtleties's (sp?) in raising a child that would make him or her homosexual (kind of like what Seko was talking about), but for the individual to make a true conscious decision... I'd have to go no.
Personally, I'd want to be bisexual, but there's no way that's going to happen.

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Mykey wrote:I honestly think it is a mix between enviroment and predisposition by way of genetics. I think all people have curiousity in the matter even if they won`t admit it. So I can not vote because I think it is both. Some are born more "gay" than others imo, and how your effected by your enviroment, either pro or anti-"gay" determines if you become completely homosexual,bi-sexual or heterosexual. This is one thing I will not admit the possibilty of being wrong on.... I honestly stand by this convection.
Gay/straight is a false dichotomy. There's a sliding scale; I am attracted to men in many ways but I have no sexual desire for them, many of my friends are bi and a fair number are gay. In none of my gay friends has it been a choice.
Now, I believe whether one expresses same- or opposite-sex desires is a matter of nurture. If you're raised to believe that being gay is shameful, sinful or wrong, you're much more likely (to a point) to try to hide, surpress, or conquer your urges. This tends to lead to psychological problems.
I don't believe that being sexually attracted to members of the same sex is a choice. One bit of anecdotal evidence: I've tried. Try as I might, I just can't get "into" being into other guys. I can think they're good-looking but that's as far as it gets (much to the disappointment of some of my friends

So, I'm going to have to go with nature on this. Nothing yet has indicated to me that being gay is a choice. Now, some people can pretend to be (though why, I have no idea, considering the amount of anti-gay sentiment that floats about as a matter of course) and some people who are naturally bi- can choose to go for the sex to which they are maybe not as attracted (I know a fair number of girls who have done this for political reasons) but in general, I don't believe it's a choice.
Oh, and Dee, more heterosexuals contract AIDS now than homosexuals. Just thought I'd point that out.
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you know, I think with 'SOME' girls, when they look at guys, they don't get ACTIVE. They may think that he is good looking. But it isn't always 'ACTIVLY' good looking. They don't always think about ACTIVNESS. Sometimes they wan't to just sit and talk, and sensitive guys are the 2n'd best thing for a girl to talk to... besides other girls. Caus if your gay, you could be a nice guy, I'm more inclined to think of gays as more sensitive and les MACHO, maby still defencive of girls in trouble, but not MACHO. IF you'r like that, if your sensitive, humanitistic, not macho, and you can listn, thats... great for a husband to a girl. So being sinsetive and being so gay... dosen't mean that you HAVE to be gay. It's situational in some ways, it's cosen in others, I don't know much, but i can say THis.... wait.... almost... THIS much.
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Pie wrote:you know, I think with 'SOME' girls, when they look at guys, they don't get ACTIVE. They may think that he is good looking. But it isn't always 'ACTIVLY' good looking. They don't always think about ACTIVNESS. Sometimes they wan't to just sit and talk, and sensitive guys are the 2n'd best thing for a girl to talk to... besides other girls. Caus if your gay, you could be a nice guy, I'm more inclined to think of gays as more sensitive and les MACHO, maby still defencive of girls in trouble, but not MACHO. IF you'r like that, if your sensitive, humanitistic, not macho, and you can listn, thats... great for a husband to a girl. So being sinsetive and being so gay... dosen't mean that you HAVE to be gay. It's situational in some ways, it's cosen in others, I don't know much, but i can say THis.... wait.... almost... THIS much.
That makes absolutely no sense to me.... about all I got from it.. is your stereotyping gays... which is so wrong.... Just because a man is gay it doesn't mean he is not macho...as you put it... sure, some take it to extremes... but some hetro men take their machoness to the opposite extreme...

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Sunni Daez wrote:Pie wrote:you know, I think with 'SOME' girls, when they look at guys, they don't get ACTIVE. They may think that he is good looking. But it isn't always 'ACTIVLY' good looking. They don't always think about ACTIVNESS. Sometimes they wan't to just sit and talk, and sensitive guys are the 2n'd best thing for a girl to talk to... besides other girls. Caus if your gay, you could be a nice guy, I'm more inclined to think of gays as more sensitive and les MACHO, maby still defencive of girls in trouble, but not MACHO. IF you'r like that, if your sensitive, humanitistic, not macho, and you can listn, thats... great for a husband to a girl. So being sinsetive and being so gay... dosen't mean that you HAVE to be gay. It's situational in some ways, it's cosen in others, I don't know much, but i can say THis.... wait.... almost... THIS much.
That makes absolutely no sense to me.... about all I got from it.. is your stereotyping gays... which is so wrong.... Just because a man is gay it doesn't mean he is not macho...as you put it... sure, some take it to extremes... but some hetro men take their machoness to the opposite extreme...
I agree with Sunni.

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West you entirely miss the point choice and nuture are entirely sepparate things.
Things in my environment and my experiences over time shape and mould how I respond and deal with all kinds of situations. As I mentioned before the most formative experiences occur before a child can have much control over their life..
Anyway, gay men can choose to marry and sleep with women, without being attracted to them but in my expereince would still say they they were attracted to men and are gay, not bisexual.
I have in a work context dealt with a number of men and women who come out after extended periods in a heterosexual relationship (often of course quite dysfunctional). These people do not choose to become gay, they will often talk of knowing in their teens of their sexuality, although I would concede that there is a lot of retrospective reinterpretation at times.
It's complicated bussiness and often they struggle to fit in with the gay 'scene' being seen as outsiders in both communities... there is considerble prejudice and discrimination by gays against those who have or had straight relationships in the environment where I worked. This was the cause of one suicide I was unfortunately involved in.
Anyway just as people can engage in extrovert behaviour without being true extroverts, people may choose to engage in sexual behaviour with members of either sex without any significant determination of their sexuality. Again I would refer you to cultures where it may be necessary to be married irrespective of sexuality.
'True' bi-sexuals are in my opinion and expereince are actually fairly rare, have an incredibly inflated id, seeking personal gratification in any form it comes, have often explored wide a varied sexual practices and other forms of hedonism and are often the most dysfunctional chaotic people.
That is not to judge them or blame them though.. we are all seeking a path to happiness the best we can I think.
I do find the debate of nature / genetics in homosexuality very curious. Religious fudamentalists who think of gays as either broken or sinners cannot accept a genetic basis for homosexuality as it undermines their concept of God. Similarly reductionist biologists struggle to explain why a basically self eliminating gene could persist. Until very recently gay people, who engaged in soley gay sex, were hardly going to reproduce...
Anyway I ramble
Things in my environment and my experiences over time shape and mould how I respond and deal with all kinds of situations. As I mentioned before the most formative experiences occur before a child can have much control over their life..
Anyway, gay men can choose to marry and sleep with women, without being attracted to them but in my expereince would still say they they were attracted to men and are gay, not bisexual.
I have in a work context dealt with a number of men and women who come out after extended periods in a heterosexual relationship (often of course quite dysfunctional). These people do not choose to become gay, they will often talk of knowing in their teens of their sexuality, although I would concede that there is a lot of retrospective reinterpretation at times.
It's complicated bussiness and often they struggle to fit in with the gay 'scene' being seen as outsiders in both communities... there is considerble prejudice and discrimination by gays against those who have or had straight relationships in the environment where I worked. This was the cause of one suicide I was unfortunately involved in.
Anyway just as people can engage in extrovert behaviour without being true extroverts, people may choose to engage in sexual behaviour with members of either sex without any significant determination of their sexuality. Again I would refer you to cultures where it may be necessary to be married irrespective of sexuality.
'True' bi-sexuals are in my opinion and expereince are actually fairly rare, have an incredibly inflated id, seeking personal gratification in any form it comes, have often explored wide a varied sexual practices and other forms of hedonism and are often the most dysfunctional chaotic people.
That is not to judge them or blame them though.. we are all seeking a path to happiness the best we can I think.
I do find the debate of nature / genetics in homosexuality very curious. Religious fudamentalists who think of gays as either broken or sinners cannot accept a genetic basis for homosexuality as it undermines their concept of God. Similarly reductionist biologists struggle to explain why a basically self eliminating gene could persist. Until very recently gay people, who engaged in soley gay sex, were hardly going to reproduce...
Anyway I ramble
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I would reply to this, but west has just said exactly what I was gonna say (and got to use 'dichotomy' before me...)
I hate biological determinism, which is why, in the past, I have argued heavily against those who link sexuality to genes, hormones, neurology and the like. But that's because of my own positioning - my own sexuality is nuture, not nature, I have been brought up in a family and a society whichare widely accepting of diverse sexualities, and have been able to enjoy that.
Most homosexual people I know say they were born gay - it's who they are, nothing to do with their upbringing or choice.
That's just stupid - people can and do feel naturally homosexual. Whether or not they are naturally homosexual or not is the debate.
Saying sexuality is choice or nurture plays into the hands of those who would seek to eradicate homosexuality.
Dee: Why do you ask? - your first post doesn't make it clear why you want to ask this.
I hate biological determinism, which is why, in the past, I have argued heavily against those who link sexuality to genes, hormones, neurology and the like. But that's because of my own positioning - my own sexuality is nuture, not nature, I have been brought up in a family and a society whichare widely accepting of diverse sexualities, and have been able to enjoy that.
Most homosexual people I know say they were born gay - it's who they are, nothing to do with their upbringing or choice.
?KeVes wrote:Quote:
No one can feel naturally homosexual. Strongly Agree
That's just stupid - people can and do feel naturally homosexual. Whether or not they are naturally homosexual or not is the debate.
Saying sexuality is choice or nurture plays into the hands of those who would seek to eradicate homosexuality.
Dee: Why do you ask? - your first post doesn't make it clear why you want to ask this.
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hallucinatingfarmer wrote:?KeVes wrote:Quote:
No one can feel naturally homosexual. Strongly Agree
That's just stupid - people can and do feel naturally homosexual. Whether or not they are naturally homosexual or not is the debate.
Saying sexuality is choice or nurture plays into the hands of those who would seek to eradicate homosexuality.
Personally they can even say that they feel as natural sons of Martians, or gods, or thay are natural cyborgs, or they are naturaly not sex affected. That's is everyone personal opnion. But I talking about my public opinion. Because I will never share their point of view that it is natural. As long as they not argue with me and they stay with that to their own that is ok. Otherwise I feel like thay wanna brainwash me or something, what is odd...
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hallucinatingfarmer wrote:Dee: Why do you ask? - your first post doesn't make it clear why you want to ask this.
Well, where I live, there aren't many homosexuals... But in the last months I've ran into some of them, and movies were made about them, that made me start thinking. I am almost sure that every homosexual person is in fact homosexual by nurture not nature... Even if they do not know it or admit it... It could be in there subconcious, something that made them feel that they are homosexual...
I just wanted to get everyone's opnion on this.
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How are you so sure?Dee wrote:I am almost sure that every homosexual person is in fact homosexual by nurture not nature...
If you have no experience yourself - how can you be sure?
The leading experts on 'gayness' are gay people themselves.
If the vast majority of them consider themselves 'born gay' - surely that is the best information to go by?
Would you not be offended if I said 'I'm almost sure that every Muslim is born a terrorist'?
I do not say that - because I listen to what Muslim people say, and the vast majority of them denounce terrorism.
To say that all Muslims are terrorists by nature is to be ignorant, and not to consider what the experts on Islam - the Muslims themselves - say
To say that gay people are gay by nurture, is to be ignorant, and not to consdier what the experts on homosexuality - the Gay people themselves - say
If I was to turn that around, and say that I wish heterosexual people, like yourself, wouldn't argue with me and would 'stay with their own' - would you not find that offensive?KeVes wrote:As long as they not argue with me and they stay with that to their own that is ok.
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