Knocker in Sil

[Doug R.]

The problem was taken care of in-character.

Wilmer, it just is. It's PD policy. In this case, it was taken care of by the players. That is not always possible, so the PD needs to step in to stop the disruption.

[Marian]

It's not like something like that can be dealt with IC, not when you can knock 200 times in just a few minutes. There's no way to kill someone that fast.

And if they were legitimately trying ot get someone's attention, wouldn't one knock be enough? Maybe two or three? When someone decides to spam knocking they keep every single person in the town from being able to RP by scrolling everything off the screen.

It's the same principle as someone standing there in the middle of town holding down the enter key.

A man in his twenties says: ""
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etc.

That's not RP, that's abusing the fact that the players see events as scrolling text.

[cantrlady]

That's not RP, that's abusing the fact that the players see events as scrolling text.

And that is when the PD has to send a note.

[T-shirt]

I understand that it is not a CR breach if it is being solved IC. Or isn't it?

[Doug R.]

Strictly speaking, even if they weren't contacted by the PD, they should probably have a file started on them, although I didn't bother. Sarah, if you want me to do that, I will.

[Wilmer Bordonado]

It's not like something like that can be dealt with IC, not when you can knock 200 times in just a few minutes. There's no way to kill someone that fast.

And if they were legitimately trying ot get someone's attention, wouldn't one knock be enough? Maybe two or three? When someone decides to spam knocking they keep every single person in the town from being able to RP by scrolling everything off the screen.

It's the same principle as someone standing there in the middle of town holding down the enter key.

That's not RP, that's abusing the fact that the players see events as scrolling text.

At this point of the discussion, I would like to say it has become a theorical discussion, as the problem has been solved IC. But it's a nice opportunity for we all to express our points o view and learn from others, isn't it? What I want to say is that I don't want to make a "flame" of it -I learnt that term few days ago- but discuss some point that could be in a grey area for players.
I'm thinking in these terms: A character was imprisioned by being dragged inside a building. He finds the building is empty. He has food in his inventory, but no other possessions.
We can agree that there's no need of evaluating why the character was dragged, since he could have stealed a lot of things or he was a victim of someone else's will.
So, returning... The only thing that character could do inside that empty building, with nothing to repair or to build, is knocking the door, just to get other's attention. A knock or two? Why not a five, or seven, even twenty or two hundred? And it's about RP, think of it: What would do a RL person who is imprisioned inside a dark and empty room? He/She would simply knock the door until tiredness beat him/her. Or shout and scream or even screw the walls. I don't imagine a RL imprisioned would remain quietly waiting for his/her kidnappers to come again.
And sorry, Marian, but it's not the same that someone stands in the middle of the town saying "" over and over. Just because in RL silence can't be heard, while in Cantr, as it's text based reality, silence is visible. So it wouldn't be actually an action, but a way to disturb others for nothing. In the knocker's case, there have been an action from the characters -imprisioning the knocker-, and in that action is implicit that the one who's locked could do a lot of noise.
Experiment it yourself: put a dog inside a cabin. Sit down and hear.
And yes, it's an abuse because the prisioner knows that he can disturb others just because it's a scrolling text reality, as you said. But... Don't abuses exist in Cantr? Piracy, injustified killing or dragging, stealing... just to say something. Abuse is a conduct in RL, so why it should be banned in Cantr?
The main attraction of Cantr is it's realism. Trying to modify it just because twenty characters are bored of hearing a door knocked -still when they know why and who is knocking- has no fundaments, in my humble opinion.

Wilmer B.

[Doug R.]

Or shout and scream or even screw the walls.

The PD's case has been made already, so I have nothing more to contribute to this discussion other than humor.

[Sekar]

(for those upset with me about the Devil thing, don't bother making comments. Cus frankly it won't stop me from expressing my opinions on other issues. Also if you havn't realized, my argument did turn out to be valid when miraculously we found out she wasn't dying at all!)

I know this discussion is almost over, but I just wanted to add that I have had the experience of being imprisoned as a newspawn, and still not wanting to die. I did not knock as much as the guys you speak of, but I would of if I had wanted to take the time to do it. I heard someone mention that knockers knock to annoy. That might be true for suicidal newspawns, but for newspawns and older players imprisoned alike, it is the only way to make your presense known to the outside world.

Now considering how corrupt some cantr justice systems are in each town, it is very important possible source of help for those who have been imprisoned wrongfully..and frankly rightfully alike. cantr players don't question the justice systems enough, and even in some major cities, knocks are ignored as just being someone trying to annoy everybody, while sometimes they knock in hopes that someone will start thinking "Hmm why does this guy persist? Does he really like being that annoying? Or has he not been able to defend himself against the charges hes facing. Has his story not been heard by non biased?"

Now the notes also are put in numbers to get attention at times too. Players who are imprisoned know how rare it is very someone to help them, so they need to be as loud as possible in hopes that someone will come and save them. Of course there are times where it really is just knocks for being annoying(though I have honestly know idea why they are so compelled to do so). So if admins are going to consider huge amounts of knocking a breach of the capital rule, they might want to check to see if this player might be doing it because it is his or her characters only hope. Now this hope is taken away often, so you should atleast let them try. Even when they can reach the outside, a clever guard will just pick up the pieces of paper when he sees them.

[Agar]

Any smart jail has an obliette jail, a building with cells inside it. Knocking and notes do not bother the populace and the peace is kept. Justice can be served in a sane manner without having the public want to lynch a knocker.

Not every justice system is corrupt. Most are carbon copies of each other, either the dictator/king/preist single ruler system, or the three councilors, or the clans (TBR/MacG's/Stone Knights) There's the occasional demorcracy, more often beuracracy, a few notable anarchys and my favorite: a comunism! Each have thier own way of dealing with things, but often, it's players wanting to saber someone first and ask questions ... maybe.

"Fair" in cantr is relative. Someone using some wood in an open room to cook meat in a communal firepit outside not seem like a big deal in most places, but someone on a distant island was assaulted for it, as wood is two towns away and trying to get some alone is suicide.

Don't expect justice. Expect to learn the rules where you are and live by them, or suffer the conseqences. Look at the kid that got caned for graffiti in china or japan. If you don't like the rules where you spawn, you have two options. Leave, or try to enact change. Most people don't want to have thier towns changed, so good luck with that.

[Oasis]

The issue being discussed isn't the rules in the town, or why they're locked up. The issue is what constitutes abuse of the game. There has to be a bit of reasonableness when looking at this issue, and in some circumstances, it is deemed abusing the game mechanics.

Some actions are taken which are a characters only way of trying to get help, being noticed, even being noticed after it's too late, etc. However, when it becomes excessive, it becomes a matter of abuse of the game, and an unneccessary disurbance to the game play of other players, not just their characters. It is the difference between an annoying character and an annoying player.

That doesn't mean none of these things can be done, however there is a limit as to what should have to be endured.

Examples:

Knocking - 20 every time the character is awake? Annoying to characters, the town just might do want to do something about that, but should be accepted by players.
- 200? unacceptable, for reasons already given.

Clogging machines - setting a few grams of resources on a normal size project, annoying to characters, should be accepted by players
- setting a few grams of resources on an incredibly large project that can't possibly be reasonably finished, abuse of the system.

Starting building projects - this is a very sticky one that most players don't seem to like, however it can be seen as "writing on the wall" as has been mentioned before......two or three that aren't offensive and serve a purpose (leave a message) vs. offensive names or unnecessarily excessive numbers to get their message across (doing so outside is taken far more seriously of course)

Dropping or sending out notes - same as knocking pretty much, hard to give a number, but a few each hour as opposed to a hundred in five minutes is far more reasonable (regardless that it's likely to be more effective for the character anyways)

Starting gathering projects - starting numerous normal sized projects that can be dealt with (removed by characters themselves, worked on if work is done on them), vs. starting a collection for an enormous amount that will take years to finish - unreasonable.

No, it is not possible to put exact numbers on these things, but reasonableness is a concept that should be understood. And yes, circumstances must be looked at in each case, of course.

[Mafia Salad]

Why is annoying behavior taboo in Cantr? I know for a fact that there are people who do annoying repetitive thing in real life. (...poke, poke, poke, poke, poke, poke, poke, poke, poke, poke...) You either ignore it until they get bored and stop whatever they are doing, or you make them stop. It seems like it should be the same way in Cantr. Plenty of people admit to playing their characters as their own personality, why should annoying people not have the same privilege? Especially when their OOC motives are judged based on IC action.

[tiddy ogg]

All very interesting. I agree that whenever possible things should be sorted ig, and that it's all a matter of being reasonable. There is too much crying for nanny to solve problems in the nursery.

[Oasis]

Annoying behaviour is not taboo in Cantr. Disruptive playing to the point of abuse is.

[Marian]

while sometimes they knock in hopes that someone will start thinking "Hmm why does this guy persist? Does he really like being that annoying? Or has he not been able to defend himself against the charges hes facing. Has his story not been heard by non biased?"

No one would knock 20+ times for that reason.

I think you and Wilmer's arguments have mostly been based on what you would see as realistic action for a person locked up to do, but you're ignoring "Cantreality". In Cantr, excessive knocking is only done for one reason - to annoy the other players as much as you can up until the point your suicidal char is killed.

If someone was honestly trying to get someone's attention, 'defend themselves against charges' or whatever, then knocking over and over again is counterproductive. All it'll do is guarantee you get killed, even if before they were thinking of giving you a chance.

Sure, once you're locked up there's never a guarantee you'll get out alive, but the best chance you have is to slide a note under the door explaining the situation - I think we all know that. I can't seriosuly believe that anyone's going to knock and knock and knock and knock and knock and knock and knock and knock and knock and knock in the hopes of getting their story heard by the 'non-biased' when there's a much more direct way to do that, and they should know from past experience that all that's going to do is turn the 'non-biased' completely against them.

[the_antisocial_hermit]

Well.. I think there would be rp use for knocking a lot sometimes, if the char locked up was hysterical (especially since the people that locked them up couldn't see them rp *she bangs on the door, screaming and crying* since they'd probably be outside, though that should be added inside for continuity as they knock, whether there was someone else inside to see it or not).. Haven't you seen movies where the person that's locked up in a room bangs on the door over and over in hysterics until they pass out? But I do agree, there is a line between knocking quite a bit for rp and knocking excessively just to be annoying..