Religion

[AoM]

God badly wants you to hear and listen to what we're saying. You aren't listening. You aren't considering any of it for a minute. Maybe you were right to leave the version of Christianity behind because God needed you to join the true Church of Christ? Because nothing is more evil than something holy that the Devil has perverted to make evil.

Nalaris... are you actually suggesting that only one sect of Christianity is good and the others have been corrupted by Satan? In the immortal words of Al Pacino: "Vanity... my favorite sin."

Does the sheer arrogance of that suggestion dawn upon you? At all?

I can't speak for Stan, but I don't think it would be right for me to walk away from someone still stumbling in darkness without doing everything in my power to try and help.

Y'know, I'll bet that was Lucifer's line to 1/3rd of the angelic host. Seriously though, we non-believers are hardly stumbling. We're very much in control of ourselves. Walk around in the dark sometime, and you'll find that your eyes adjust.

[Antichrist_Online]

Those in the night adapt to it,
and see what's really there.
Those in the light are blinded by it,
and see what they want to be there.

(Sorry about going into poetry, that came from a muse I didn't think I had).

Oh, and I'm the believer in Dragons, and at least free of some of the arrogance of the Human species to think we are the chosen and better than other animals and that we are some how like the Gods. We're just insignificant specs of dust in an eternal cycle. That however doesn't make us unimportant or free from guilt for our actions.

[formerly known as hf]

I don;t know if you didn;t see my question, or if you are just ignoring it Nalaris?

You claim to not believe in dragons because there is no physical proof - but you are sure of God's existence, despite conclusive proof, because you have had various experiences, not of the physical kind, but of 'feeling' or just 'knowing' - which confirm the existence of God.

If you were to have an 'experience' involving dragons - one which was in the mind - a dragon appearing in your thoughts and answering a hope, or dealing with a fear - would you start believing in all-powerful dragons? Or would you just consider it to be a brief loss of mental stability?

[west]

Note that this does not mean that the author hasn't had his doubts concerning his religion and has, in fact, looked into the possible truths in Islam, Atheism, and even aliens, but has discarded them in favour of his current religion, which he see's to be more true as far as he can tell.

Course it seems more true. You were raised in it, weren't you? Therefore of course nothing's going to seem quite as right and true to you, because nothing's going to match up to your expectations for what things should be like as much as will the one you base your judgments of all the others around.

[Pie]

those in the dark adjust to it, loving there self surving life, those in the light are awed by it, worshiping god almighty. Never thinking of soialing the light they have found, they live in suclusion to darkness. even though the dark does not wan't to be found, it is consumed by the thought of the light. the fight does continue, as you have seen today, none can excape the flaming, But I do not care, you will all meet your judgment, Be it god budda alla or nothing.

[Stan]

Stan, can we just agree to disagree?

Sure. By the way, I'm not trying to convert you. But, I think some of the things you're saying are wrong just as you feel the same. So, I'm going to disagree with you.

I'm not judging you, either. I don't know if you'll be in heaven or not. Life has a way of giving people a chance to change their perspective on things. Just as you claim an unconversion you might change your mind. Either way I don't make the decision and ultimately I don't know what God will do. I can only go by the book that I think explains it to me.

I've been in this discussion on this Forum several times before, so don't take it as a personal knock. I'm sure you're a nice guy. We just happen to be talking about one of the most important issues in a person's life, and it happens to be something I have first hand knowledge about. And, I rarely shy away from a debate that is meaninful to me.

[Pie]

(Yea not shying away frome debaits!!)*shy's away frome this debait*

[Jack Dudeman]

Stan, I'd like to apologize for spouting off in my last post. I surely don't mean to put you down. You are a very smart person, as are most of the people involved in this discussion. I am just as opinionated as everyone else who feels the urge to try to figure out what life is all about. I've had bad experiences with church and religion before, and perhaps that has had something to do with my critical thinking of the subject. And lately, I have encountered a great deal of backlash from those who used to be friends because I have questioned whether or not their is an almighty god. I mean, there's a lot of animosity between myself and some other people I know simply because I believe that there might not be a god. And that hurts me. I feel like they think less of me now, and that's just not right.

In summary of all that I've said in all my previous posts in this thread:

Religion is good for some, and bad for others. I don't like evangelism, and I think religion should be a very personal, inner belief. Therefore, I take offense when people insist that their religious views are right. (whether doing it outright, or through insinuation); I am profoundly irritated by people who try to mix religious doctrine with science. I don't like to be preached at, and finally, I feel that government and religion should have as little to do with each other as possible. I don't think that any government should endorse one particular religion, because that means that laws will be made that are rooted in a belief, and not fact. And no one should be a criminal for doing or saying something that is not in line with one individual religion.

I'm not judging you, either. I don't know if you'll be in heaven or not. Life has a way of giving people a chance to change their perspective on things.

But, you see... This, I don't like. I believe that there is no heaven or hell. People talk about these places like they've been there and seen them, and are certain that they exist, just like New York City or Mt Fuji. The whole idea just seems silly to me. I am not going to hell, and neither is anyone else. Heaven is an attractive thought to many. You get to spend eternity in the most beautiful place you can imaging. You have no cares, and nothing but good things happen. There is no death, suffering, arguing, or any other negative thing. This is a very attractive thought. But if there is a heaven, then there must be a hell. I believe that people think that bad people go to hell when they die, but how do you determine what is good and bad? And don't say that God determines, because different religions say that different things are good and bad, and they can't all be right.

Finally, I don't mean to be rude, Stan, but you keep saying that you have first-hand knowledge on the subject, and you've had these experiences with God or something. I'm just curious about the mysterious knowledge you have. Again, I'm NOT trying to be insulting or anything, but you sure seem convinced in your beliefs, and it can't be from faith alone.

[Stan]

I was just trying to say that I wasn't judging you. I appreciate that you don't believe in heaven or hell. You thought I was saying you were going to hell and I was just trying to convey that I wasn't saying you were.

I talk about those places because I do believe they exist. I've been to NY and I've climbed Mt. Fuji and can attest by first hand account that they do, in fact, exist just as you say. I've never been to heaven nor have I been to hell but I believe they are there.

I want to take time to prepare my answer to you about why I strongly believe God exists and that Jesus is Christ and that Jesus is the way to heaven. I have to tell you, a few years ago I could not have written that sentence. But, it was a few years ago that I was changed. I'll put together my story. I must advise you, though, that if you don't find me a credible witness you will likely dismiss my story as coincidence, lies or misinterpretation.

I want to point out, though, that I do not lie about such things. My technical background and use of statistics in engineering leads me to doubt the existence of pure coincidence after a pattern begins to emerge. It is possible that I have misinterpreted things that have occured in my life or perhaps there is some other explanation. But, I'm not one to make assumptions or jump to conclusions. I look for more than 1 reason to explain results. I work daily to repeat positive results and to mitigate poor results. When I find something that works I stick with it.

I have had a measure of success in my life. That comes from my ability to test and validate or test and invalidate. I have found something that I have tested and found to be true. I have also had experiences that were profound and no doubt miraculous.

If you met me I don't believe you would take me for some religious zealot. I am not judgemental. I do not hate. I have fun. I joke.

I appreciate the olive branch you've extended. I owe you an answer.

And lately, I have encountered a great deal of backlash from those who used to be friends because I have questioned whether or not their is an almighty god. I mean, there's a lot of animosity between myself and some other people I know simply because I believe that there might not be a god. And that hurts me. I feel like they think less of me now, and that's just not right.

I agree with you. That's not right. One of my best friends is totally atheist. I think no less of him because of it. I think no less of you because of it. If they have animosity against you they have a problem, not you.

[Nalaris]

The reason I believe what I do is because I feel, in the same way that I feel sickness or adrenaline, God inside of me. Simple as that.

...And, other than that, it appears as though this debate is dying off...I'm not sure if I'm happy or sad...

As for the quotes about darkness and your eyes adjusting...heh heh...well, that's wrong. Actual, true darkness, the absence of light, is impossible to see in. And it's frightening. Pure light bathes everything in whiteness for a second, then your eyes adjust and you see everything. So, scientifically, those quotes are moot.

[Dee]

I have a question... When non-Christians convert to Christianity, they get baptized, right? I think I spelled it wrong...

I'd like to understand what happens during baptisim, please?

[Stan]

You spelled it correctly.

Do you mean, how to get baptized? Or do you mean what happens to a person during baptism physically and spiritually?

I'm heading out of my office for a business meeting but will be on the road for a few hours. I'll come back when I have a chance while on the road and explain it.

[formerly known as hf]

Nalaris?

I'm gonna ask this for the third time.

If you 'felt' what you feel about God - some innate, untangible presence, but you felt it about dragons. (And I use dragons as the example, because you said you do not believe in them because of lack of physical evidence - yet you believe in God, without lack of physical evidence - but based on your 'feelings')

Would you start believing in Dragons?

[Dee]

Stan, I was asking about both...

Do they dip themselves in any kind of water, or is it a special kind of water?

And what do they feel during the process?

And why is the whole ceremony necessary?

[Valsum]

@Dee:

For catholic baptism is the introduction of that person into the Church. Jesus said "baptize everyone in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit", and so is done so the baptized is a member of His Church.

Baptism is therefore the first and a very important Sacrament, and through it we get God's grace, making it possible for us to achieve communion with God.

That's all what I can tell you about baptism. We baptise people with a rite presided by a priest, who sparks holy water (it's merely a sign) on the baptised's head and makes the sign on the cross on his front.