Religion

[Antichrist_Online]

Pie to quote the King James bible I have here the fruit is "knowledge for good or evil" thus original sin wasn't the knowledge for evil just knowledge in general. (And atleast you aren't reapeating that sin.)

What are these two scientist you keep rambling on about? Also, cudos for knowing about the current debate on whether Einstein stole his ideas. Roslin Franklin discovered the structure of DNA but the paper was published by Watson and Crick first (using her data), she only didn't get the nobel prize as she died before hand. Which brings me on to a thing that gets me about certain creationists saying if Darwin was so great how come he hasn't got a nobel prize. Simple, he died long before they started and they are never posthomously given.

[formerly known as hf]

And H.F., i would like for you to provide cristian based evidence against cristianity. (Think about what your saying before you post it, H.F.)

You clearly didn't understand what I said.

Of course there are no Christian sources that challenge Christian beliefs - which proves my point - that Christian sources are never going to be neutral, or even try to be objective in approaching matters of religion - hence they are inherently biased, and frankly un-trustworthy sources.

Furthermore your 'sources' - the links you have posted - seem to be little more than rantings of individuals - they are not organisations, nor are they even people who are learned in the subject matter.

Using your style of referencing and linking to 'sources' is incredibly limited - just because it's written on the internet - does not make it a credible source - ANYONE can write something and put it on the internet - as you have very clearly shown.

Nalaris: You claim that you do not believe in Dragons as there is no physical evidence - there is no physical evidence for God's existence, but you claim 'experience' of his reality.

If a Dragon was to appear in your mind, and command you to believe that Dragons are real, fire-breathing, high-flying man-munchers of legends, would you buy yourself a full-on leather get-up and a massively over-sized saddle and declare yourself Nalaris, friend and rider of the Dragonian race, or would you take admit yourself to the local loony-farm?

[Nixit]

Lets make a story to show what god does. Bob buys bill a presant. he knows that bill is suisidal, and he knows that bill is going to kill himself soon. so, he buys a presant that is expensive, and he throus a big party to.

Bob buys his son a presant. He knows his son dosen't like anything that isn't red, so he buys a red presant.

Easy as that.

Where does God come into play in that, and how are the two stories related? I don't understand.

[Stan]

Geeze, you fellas have...uh...staying power!

[west]

will you just STOP YOUR FRIGAN MUD SLINGING!!! WHAT IS YOUR PROBLEM?? Man, if you have some sort of anger problem, JUST GET A VIDIO GAME!!!

And if you don't like the links that I made, JUST DO YOUR OUN SEARCH!!!

West:(again) Thats not a thery? As you guys have said, a thery needs no evidance for it, it just needs to NOT have evidence against it.

I have NEVER said that. A theory is a culmination of many, many bits of evidence that come together towards a coherent picture of the way things very well might work. Pseudo-science and foregone conclusions do not a theory make.

And I don't have an anger problem. I am being quite calm, I think, considering what I am up against. I have a problem with people who blare inanities and seem to have no concept of critical thought.

Oh, and I do play video games. I'm a violent-video-game-playing pacifist, a realist idealist, an ascetic glutton and vigorous proponent of logic. Clear?

[Stan]

I'm a violent-video-game-playing pacifist, a realist idealist, an ascetic glutton and vigorous proponent of logic. Clear?

So that's the problem?

[west]

Seems to be. Particularly that last bit.

[Mykey]

It is remarkable, it is the valuable answer

[west]

The point is, that every Christian denomination has a stranglehold on absolute truth, and anyone who disagrees with them (even within the faith) is immediately put down with, "Oh, they're not Christians". One of the few denominations that doesn't is Unitarian Universalist, but hey, they're not Christians.

[Nalaris]

Well duh...that's the whole concept behind religion.

Pie's story was Bob as God and X person as the recipient of a blessing, right?

There is physical evidence for God, it's just not direct enough to provide proof. Actually, God's existence is not a terribly unlikely thing. It just seems so because of the medieval Catholic churches hatred for new thought (and, thus, science).

And God never condemned all mankind. He condemned Adam and Eve. Their sin, their punishment. All men are judged by their own sins, not someone else's.

[Pie]

oh, and the fruit is like pandoras box. Lots of bad, maby some good. It's actually more like growing up. When you were a child, you didn't know good from bad very good. But you were inocent. You didn't know anything. But you were inocent. You were cute. And you were inocent(maby some people here weren't cute.. but i don't know) and when growing up, when you get knowlage of good and bad, you loos that inocense. It's cinda like that.

And also, to point out to you H.F..... I was asking the exact same question you asked me, but opposite. If you can find a cristian site(religious sites against cristianity might be more common,) that is against cristianity, I'd be suprised. If you can find a non cristian/religionist site that is against evolution, I would be suprised. and if you do, pleas post it here.

oh, and you know what els? I don't care. Jesus lived, he died, he rose again, paul and other desiples where marterd for them beleaving that he died, and the desiples(I get the feeling I'm not saying this right...) were eye witnesses, so either what they saw was fake, or it is true, the gosples were made before 70 A.D. or at least 130(when a jewish historian mentioned jesus.. i beleav..) so whatever.

[west]

There is physical evidence for God, it's just not direct enough to provide proof.

I'm going to say this one more time. That's inference, not evidence. You use examples from life to INFER that there is a God. And yes, there are things that can be used to infer the existence of God, but for the love of all that is holy (and if God didn't want us to be logical he wouldn't have given us brains and free will), don't call it evidence. It's not.

[Mykey]

I consider, that you are not right. I can prove it. Write to me in PM, we will communicate.

[Nixit]

And God never condemned all mankind. He condemned Adam and Eve. Their sin, their punishment. All men are judged by their own sins, not someone else's.

But God created them, and since he knows every human SO well, he would have created them KNOWING that they were going to discover sin, as you say. No?

[west]

Sorry, West but now I have to ask. What would qualify as proof to you of God`s existence? I see God more as the fading smile Of a Cheshire cat.
Not meant to be proven/disproven. Only accepted as a lunatic`s nightmare or an innocent girl`s dream. Denied by only those who cannot percieve the awe and wonder all around them.


Personally the only way to disprove God to me , is to be able to answer everything. Until than it`s like Valsum`s Voltaire quote.

I never said I didn't believe in God. I've gone through many times in my life where I believed quite strongly and (I thought) unswervingly. Right now, I'm not so sure. I waver. I very much doubt it's something I'll be able to believe or not believe consistently for any length of time. I'm too curious, and too dissatisfied with pat answers.

I don't think God is something that can be proven or disproven. I dislike when people try to use science to prove God's existence almost as much as I dislike when people use faith to disprove observable scientific evidence.

I suppose I'm an existentialist humanist. The existence or lack thereof of a God or any sort of higher power does not change our obligations to the world around us. We are still our brothers' keeper, and we are still the stewards of the environment. If we do not leave our little parts of the world better than we found them (I mean the people around us as much as I do the world) then we have wasted our lives.

Nobody knows what happens after death. Nobody knows whether there's a God or not. All we have is conjecture one way or the other. I'm not even sure any of us exist.

But what we do know is that the life we have now* is finite, and we have to make the most of what we have. Maximize joy, in yourself and in others. Make the world a better place.

As the Teacher said in Ecclesiastes, "Meaningless, meaningless! Everything is meaningless, a chasing after the wind."


*The life we have now, by the evidence of our senses and our minds, I mean. We could be just brains in a jar, but what's the point laboring over it? Whether or not it's true doesn't change anything about this life, Matrix be damned.

If I've come off in this thread as insulting or harsh on faith, that wasn't my intent. I'm just relentlessly opposed to the kind of "thought" that goes into defending religious institutions and dogma. God ought to stand up to scrutiny, or he is no God. And methinks a lot of relgious dogma has God laughing his (or her) celestial ass off.

I'll close this post (damn you all for dragging me back into this, by the way) with this poem by Czeslaw Milosz:

If there is no God,
Not everything is permitted to man.
He is still his brother's keeper
And he is not permitted to sadden his brother,
By saying that there is no God.