rklenseth's psychology and whatever

[rklenseth]

Does tomorrow ever come?

[David]

Sho, collectivism is even enshrined in some of the common thought-clichés, but in a language of individualism.

Yes, America is not as collectivist as Europe. One of France's dominant parties is the Socialists, and the Communists are the "swing vote" in parliment. Then there is Scandinavian Democracies which are collectivist in many ways more than America. The point is that any modern industrial or post-industrial society is collectivist, some more than others. There is also a kind of bureaucratic imperative too. So one can lament the faults of the bureaucracy, but not wish for their destruction in reality, because this just a tendency in a highly populated world.

I truly don't think America lives in a largely "post industrial society" like many theorists put forward. America is simply the rich neighborhood of the world. We are a world industrial society, where China, India, Latin America, and Africa are the locations of production that support the rich neighborhoods. So it always rings false to me when I hear the term post-industrail, which I do think may eventually be achieved if machines take over all assembly lines. I see us as more and more one world economy (doesn't everyone?).

EDIT: In addition Sho, your view of the wider America may be limited by your first impressions by being in New York City, arguably light-years different than many other regions of America in terms of certain facets of mainstream political thought, and societal feeling. Urban thought is different than suburban and rural usually in America. Also, the coastal regions are more liberal in general then the interior of the country. Tocqueville's writings are still accurate in many respects.

[sammigurl61190]

Nope.

[rklenseth]

Yes, exactly, Sammi. And why is that?

Note to self; there is no point in trying to argue with socialists and extreme liberals as they think they are right no matter what and think the United States is the devil worshipper if they believed in the devil.

[David]

I hope your not refering to me, I never said that. Orion on the other hand seems to be waiting in the wings for an attack on the U.S. (maybe, but not really)

I am simply stating how collectivist America is v. America's self-image. As every industrial society known to man is collectivist to varying degrees. American corporate structure is collectivist. Global corporations simply operate close to the communist model with respect to the rank and file employees, with the rest of the money "exiting" the system going to the upper level employees. The modern international global corporation is no where near the rugged individualism that America has in its national ethos. It is in fact Antethema to America's self-image. It's just private mass collectivism. Small Business on the otherhand is something else entirely (unless it is still subsidied or supported by the government indirectly. As is every industry in the greater Washingtown metropolitan area and outlying states. This isn't name calling it is description, for the most part value-free. My description my be somewhat off, and I could take the side of trying to change it or trying to keep it the way it is, but it is largely collectivist whether "private" or public.

[David]

Look at American fast food franchises v. German culinary individualism from small resturaunt to the other. In this case American style rugged individualism is more the rule of the day in Germany than in America.

[rklenseth]

Actually I was talking about before the collectivism arguments and for my past experiences on this forum. But the collectivism arguments are quite interesting but I'm going to opt out of this as it seems I came in to late to debate. I hate entering into the middle of things.

[David]

Ya, I get that feeling certain times in entering established posts, sometimes its just "akward"...

[rklenseth]

One of the international signs of distress is to put your flag upside down. What do you do if you are British and have only a British flag?

[David]

LOL, turn it on its ends?

[thingnumber2]

ummmm....good question....

[The Hunter]

I hope your not refering to me, I never said that. Orion on the other hand seems to be waiting in the wings for an attack on the U.S. (maybe, but not really)

Ehm, small misunderstanding. Expecting is what I meant.

[Meh]

Crass - Where Next Columbus? Lyrics
http://www.metrolyrics.com/lyrics/72305 ... Columbus?/

Anothers hope, anothers game
Anothers loss, anothers gain
Anothers lies, anothers truth
Anothers doubt, anothers proof
Anothers left, anothers right
Anothers peace, anothers fight
Anothers name, anothers aim
Anothers fall, anothers fame
Anothers pride, anothers shame
Anothers love, anothers pain
Anothers hope, anothers game
Anothers loss, anothers gain
Anothers lies, anothers truth
Anothers doubt, anothers proof
Anothers left, anothers right
Anothers peace, anothers fight
Marx had an idea from the confusion of his head
Then there were a thousand more waiting to be led
The books are sold, the quotes are bought
You learn them well and then you're caught
Anothers left, anothers right
Anothers peace, anothers fight
Mussolini had ideas from the confusion of his heart
Then there were a thousand more waiting to play their part
The stage was set, the costumes worn
And another empire of destruction born
Anothers name, anothers aim
Anothers fall, anothers fame
Jung had an idea from the confusion of his dream
Then there were a thousand more waiting to be seen
You're not yourself, the theory says
But I can help, your complex pays
Anothers hope, anothers game
Anothers loss, anothers gain
Satre had an idea from the confusion of his brain
Then there were a thousand more indulging in his pain
Revelling in isolation and existential choice
Can you truly be alone when you use anothers voice?
Anothers lies, anothers truth
Anothers doubt, anothers proof
The idea born in someones mind
Is nurtured by a thousand blind
Anonymous beings, vacuous souls
Do you fear the confusion, your lack of control?
You lift your arm to write a name
So caught up in the identity game
Who do you see? Who do you watch?
Who's your leader? Which is your flock?
Who do you watch? Who do you watch?
Who's your leader? Which is your flock?
Einstein had an idea from the confusion of his knowledge
Then there were a thousand more turning to advantage
They realised that their god was dead
So they reclaimed power through the bomb instead
Anothers code, anothers brain
They'll shower us all in deadly rain
Jesus had an idea from the confusion of his soul
Then there were a thousand more waiting to take control
The guilt is sold, forgiveness bought
The cross is there as your reward
Anothers love, anothers pain
Anothers pride, anothers shame
Do you watch at a distance from the side you have chosen?
Whose answers serve you best? Who'll save you from confusion?
Who will leave you an exit and a comfortable cover
Who will take you oh so near the edge, but never drop you over?
Who do you watch?

[David]

Ya, I wasn't sure if you were saying something that contraversial or not Orion. I'm glad it was the latter.

[David]

Is that a song?

Using the metaphor of the poetry:

I have a lazy eye and an active one, fighting with eachother. One wants to set its eyes on someone the other wants to move from person to person. Of course sometimes I want to watch myself.

EDIT: I can't fully buy into postmodern anomy if that is what the piece points to, yet progress is elusive as well.