Religion

[Nalaris]

Non-conclusive evidence that God exists: Miraculous 1-in-a-kajillion chance healings, massive and widespread faith, personal revelation in many intelligent and reasonable people, strange tendencies for prophecies to come true.
Non-conclusive evidence that God does not exist: ...uh...prove it...

Anyone want to try and fill in the second category, be my guest. I've been wrong before.

And please refrain from personal assaults. You can make someone else feel as bad as you want, that's not going to change the world.

[Jack Dudeman]

I am trying to be as civil as possible, and I do not appreciate being insulted. I am sorry that this discussion irritates you, Stan, and I don't care if you think I'm going to hell.

I know that quotes can run us around in circles, but I'd like to share this:

"I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours."
- Stephen Roberts

[Kreed]

Miraculous 1-in-a-kajillion chance healings

How does that balance out to the complete lack of any correlation between peoples religiosity and survivability of terminal illness?

massive and widespread faith

This isn’t an argument but an appeal to common practice. Or to put it another way, belief in dragons is common in even in modern China. As there are far more Chinese believers in dragons than Christian believers in God the massive and widespread faith in dragons outweighs the massive and widespread belief in the Christian God. Your statement implies that dragons have more reality than God.

personal revelation in many intelligent and reasonable people

This is another rendition of an appeal to common practice, as above.

strange tendencies for prophecies to come true

As this is

Non-conclusive evidence that God exists

I'd like to see any one of these prophecies which you mention and info on the resulting act of it coming true. Of course if this is a prophecy from the bible and supported by the bible that would unsupportable as it'd be a circular aurgument.

[sanchez]

Fellas, a proof that god exists doesn't.

[Mykey]

I am sorry, I can help nothing, but it is assured, that to you necessarily will help. Do not despair.

[Nixit]

Otherwise, most would believe in God. Jack, I don't think he's trying to insult you, and maybe you realize that, but he sees the world through his eyes. And he believes in God, and it doesn't appear to be based purely on blind faith. Granted, everyone hasn't had a personal revelation that Stan has, and I think he realizes that (very sure actually). Eh... I dunno. I just love this thread.

[Kreed]

I think proof can only be found within.

Opinion != Proof (not equal).

doesn't appear to be based purely on blind faith

Totally appears to be.

[Nixit]

It's no doubt faith, but he says that he had some sort of personal revelation, and that it he hadn't believed in God for his whole life before then... and there's no reason to say he's lying there.

And unless you call that -blind- faith...

[KiNG KiLL]

First of all, I think I stated that I meant no disrespect, Stan. And I still don't. I just wanted you to consider some things. I never said that I was smarter or wiser than you. I don't think I am. And I'm sure you're as much thinker as anyone else. Otherwise you wouldn't bother to discuss this topic. You call me arrogant. I have never said that god doesn't exist. I'm not an athesit. I am an agnostic. I say that to me, he exists as much as Seaman or Superman does. And they exists as much on the same grounds; Someone wrote about them and someone started believe that the stories were true.
So you don't need to tell me things that I think about myself, and I won't tell you things you think of yourself, all right? Don't get personal when there's no need to. Faith is a personal thing, I know, but you don't need to feel offended or mistreated when I have no wish in the world to make you feel that way.

I need to get an answer as to why believing in god is more sane than believing in Superman or any other character based on litterature. I am dead serious. I don't doubt that you believe in a higher power. But I doubt very much that you would call him or it "god" if someone hadn't presented you with a certain book. If I had given you a different book at the right time in your life, perhaps you wouldn't be a christian today. Do you agree with this, or do you think that god seeks out people who he feels is capable of tuning in his radio station? That god selects whom he speaks to? The fact that they all have read the bible at some point has nothing to do with it? Just a happy coincidence?

Nice try with the colors and the blind man. I like the effort. But colors are seen by animals as well as humans. Does animals believe in god? I don't know the answer to that obviously. But believing in god is, as I have tried to poit out several times, a cultural thing in the world of men. Litterally.

The funny thing is that anyone can say that "god told me to" and be right. Who can ever say that he or she is wrong or a liar. Perhaps god actually DID tell that guy to kill his family and friends. Who knows? And who could question it? Why not just shrugs your shoulders and say that "OK, I guess if he says god told him to... we must accept his personal view on things. Don't want to make him feel bad by us questioning him and his faith."

Oh, but here's one thing that people tend to ignore... the bible contradicts itself countless times. Aren't we suppose to forgive all sins? I seem to remember reading that. But then again, does anyone truly act on that? No. Never. But we are but men. We are sinners. And it's all the devil's fault. Without the devil around we would all be smiling every second we are awake. Perhaps even when we sleep. It's the devil, I tell you, it's the devil!

And if god truly exists... why must people like him so damn much!? Isn't he just a creator of things? It's not like he does only good things. Oh, but yes! All the bad stuff comes from either the devil presence or the individual's ability to chose for himself. Right?


I wish that I would be able to tune in on god channel, Stan. I really wish that. Oh... but hey, if I pay $4 a month, I can!! Don't you just love TV? And all the possibilities it gives you? Seriously, I really wish I knew how to tune in. It would be great to feel his presence. Iäm not sure I would feel comforted though, as I said earlier, I don't see that god's existance is a good thing. I think I need a stronger receiver in order to hear his words. Reading the bible or go to church doesn't do it for me. How about a live concert, god? Would that be nice? Just to end all the speculation? Oh, no but that would probably be a suicide since god and all religions lives and thrives on beliefs and not facts.

[Mykey]

It agree, this amusing opinion

[Jack Dudeman]

Epicurus summed it up well when he wrote these ideas:

Either God wants to abolish evil, and cannot; or he can and does not want to.
If he wants to, but cannot, he is impotent.
If he can, but does not want to, he is wicked.
If, as they say, God can abolish evil, and God really wants to do it, why is there evil in the world?

[Mykey]

Bravo, you were visited with simply brilliant idea

[KiNG KiLL]

Either God wants to abolish evil, and cannot; or he can and does not want to.
If he wants to, but cannot, he is impotent.
If he can, but does not want to, he is wicked.
If, as they say, God can abolish evil, and God really wants to do it, why is there evil in the world?

That's both witty and something to consider...

But who is evil and who is good? And who gets to decide?

[west]

A transendence is an exp that qualifies as proof to me. Not an opinion. When it comes from within your soul and is revealed to you personally, you no longer need such labels to justify it. But trying to explain it, or coerce others into believing you is futile. All people must exp it for themselves. What I exp`d is not an opinion for me and me only. It is fact. You may call it whatever you wish, because it really has nothing to do with you. My God is personal and, it is genderless and, rarely comprehensible to myself. I can not push it on anyone, nor do I try.
It is for me and me only. I believe Stan may know what I mean. Than again he may not, it really doesn`t matter. Science tells us, if the big bang had only a very little bit more or less energy, matter itself would not be possible. I don`t have a source for this, but I`m sure if you care enough to look you will find it. This alone is enough for me to seriously consider God. That is, if you believe the big bang which I`m not really sure about but it`s one of the better theories we have to go on.
I hope one day all people can feel what I have felt ,and petty arguments will not dilute the revelation. I think organized religion in all its forms is corrupt at best, and a way of unifying these trancendal exp`s. It is sad it does more to segregate than to unify. Perhaps one day after many millenia have passed. We will rise above these arguments and know for sure. Until than all that can guide us is what is on the inside.

Based on the testimonies of my parents' lives and the hundreds of people I know who have felt what they consider to be God's touch in their lives (and even myself from time to time), I maintain the belief that I always have re: God and religion. Religion is an organizational heirarchy of human beings, used to control.

The only true faith is based on individual experiences. That's why true believers who bring their children to church every Sunday can't comprehend why the children don't go to church when they leave home. You can't inherit your parents' faith. Religion, yes. Faith, no.

Faith is a personal thing, and those that have it, understand it.

Those that don't have it will never understand it. Who is right? I dunno. I've had it, and I've not had it. I've held it unquestioningly, and I've questioned extensively.

I'm a searcher, and I always have been. But I am also a person of reason. I reject circular argumentation, flawed logic and all those other attempts to "prove" or "disprove" God. You cannot do either. You can feel it, or you can not feel it, but you can never convince someone or argue someone into feeling it.

[the_antisocial_hermit]

Non-conclusive evidence that God exists: Miraculous 1-in-a-kajillion chance healings, massive and widespread faith, personal revelation in many intelligent and reasonable people, strange tendencies for prophecies to come true.

If you want to get into using those experiences as evidence, there is evidence in such things that multiple gods also exist. That every religion is just as viable as any.

It's not evidence that God or Bast or Ma'at or Venus or Kokopelli or the Flying Spaghetti Monster exists. It's evidence that unexplainable things can happen which we like to put an explanation to because of our nature. It's comforting to think that we're not alone and that there's life after death and that we have a purpose.

I am agreeing with west on the matter of faith. It's personal. If you feel God, that's enough evidence for you. If I feel God, that's enough evidence for me. But it doesn't mean that it's enough evidence for someone else-- and it doesn't mean I'm not wrong in believing the evidence I have.

I choose to embrace the personal experiences and faith I have in developing my spirituality. I choose not to believe any one religion as necessarily right. What is important and central to human nature is spirituality, not religion. Does it damn me any more than someone that believes something else? I don't believe so. The only way I'll know is after I'm gone. I have just as much chance of being right as the person with polar opposite views of mine. All I can do until then is try to be as good a person and live my life as well as I believe I can, regardless of what others think or try to impose.