Religion

[Valsum]

Stan I wasn't judging anyone man...I try to never do it. As I said, I'm tolerant with homosexual people. I just said it's unnatural because we humans are supposed to have families, you know, a man and a woman...Unnatural doesn't mean horrible and punishable, I respect anyone's decision to love whoever they want, but that doesn't have to mean it's good (to me). One of the reasons for my defense of the "traditional" family, besides religious, are what Dee said.

And Hermi, you're right, then people like your uncle I have no problem with...it's the visible and let's say "loudest" gays that 'cause some "waves of hate" from certain kinds of people against all homosexuals and so in some moments and places tensions are rising instead of decreasing.

[west]

I am sure that there are disadvantages for homosexuality. I won't quote a holy book or anything, but let's be logical about it.

The numbers of homosexuals is growing. What would happen if the whole world, or most of it, became homosexuals? There will be no reproduction.

God wants us to reproduce, to worship Him.

Most people believe being gay isn't something you "choose". it's part of who you are. That being said, there is absolutely no chance that homosexuality will "replace" heterosexuality. There will always be straight people, most likely the vast majority, and they will continue to have children well after they should have stopped for the good of the earth.

Does God want us to reproduce to the extent that we over-draw the Earth's resources? To the extent that we, by our sheer numbers, are no longer effectively able to care for one another, or live in a way that will sustain the Earth? Some people argue that this has already happened.

God is not a mindless force. Not all reproduction is good, and not everything that doesn't lead to reproduction is bad. All things in their seasons.

And Hermi, you're right, then people like your uncle I have no problem with...it's the visible and let's say "loudest" gays that 'cause some "waves of hate" from certain kinds of people against all homosexuals and so in some moments and places tensions are rising instead of decreasing.

And you think there aren't the "loudest" fundamentalists who cause so many waves of hate from the people THEY hate towards all Christians? As long as you have people that say "God hates fags" you will have gay people who are upset by them saying that. People are people, and there are a certain percentage of outliers in every population group that deliberately feed the fire, raise tensions, and promulgate hate. I can think of very few groups that this doesn't apply to.

[Stan]

I know you weren't bud. But there have been some comments on the board that don't reflect Christian values.

If you have a person that is gay and a person that is straight without Christ neither is getting to heaven (in my opinion). If you have a gay person and a straight person that have given their lives over to Christ they will both go to heaven. This holds true whether a person continues to practice homosexuality or not.

In 1 John 2 it says, "My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have one who speaks to the Father in our defense—Jesus Christ, the Righteous One. He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world. "

God loves us regardless.

[Jack Dudeman]

First of all, Valsum, I like your quote.

Second:

I just said it's unnatural because we humans are supposed to have families, you know, a man and a woman...Unnatural doesn't mean horrible and punishable

I can't understand why homosexuality is referred to as 'unnatural'. To me, unnatural means something that doesn't occur in nature. This phenomenon does indeed occur naturally througout several species of life on Earth.

And I don't know decided what we, as humans, are 'supposed to' be doing with our lives. Isn't it our inherent human right to choose to live our lives however we want, so long as we are not hurting anyone or anything?

[Stan]

Depends on your perspective I guess.

I don't think a person can make a solid argument that things they do don't affect other people for good or bad.

"No man is an island" is another quote that I believe holds true. In life, most of the bad things that happen to us are not the result of things we do, but things other people do that affect us.

People smoke until they die. They might argue they aren't hurting anyone but themselves. I look at the case of my mother in law. Her smoking killed her, but it left a husband, my wife, my brother in law, and my wife's parents and brother in it's wake.

Hurting other people is in the eye of the beholder.

[Sunni Daez]

There is nothing in life that we do...that doesn't have the ability to affect someone..somehow... it can be as innocent as a friendly hug..and it has the potential to hurt someone... Smoking ..as you say... affects many.. either by the smokers death.. or maybe the death of someone who was affected by the second hand smoke.

Homosexuallity... is an inner and personal matter that should not be controled by someone else... it may hurt say... a mother... to find out about her child... it may hurt a spouse.. to find out about a husband/wife... but it is still thier choice... if we try to live our life.. as not to hurt someone else.. we would not have a life at all... merely an existance.

[Torkess_theCommie]

if we try to live our life.. as not to hurt someone else.. we would not have a life at all... merely an existance.

i like this quote... makes alot of sense to me and I agree with it.

well I can't really contribute to the homosexual/hetoralsexual topic without making myself sound like an idiot so I'll make this one statement which I'm sure many of you have said before... but i was too lazy to look at the last posts..

I don't care whether you're bi/homo/hetoral sexual... you are still people, I'm not religious or anything so I'm not going to say anything like "God love us all equally" because I'm not christian.. but I still like that statement, yes this may make no sense to you all.. but just saying.. People are People, sometimes they were born that way, sometimes they chose to be that way, it's their choice, their opinion, maybe it was the way they were brought up?
True.. people do bad things, they "sin", maybe they thought it was the "right" way to do things, it may seem so to them, it may have seemed "normal" to them, what is "normal"? is there a "normal'?

[Valsum]

For that, Torkess, I'll quote Voltaire: "All sects are different, because they come from men; morality is everywhere the same, because it comes from God."

Quotes apart, there are lots of things that are considered "normal". It might vary a little say, for example, from a brazilian culture to an hindu culture, but I say: "normal" ethics or morale is what makes us be humans, and not just one more species of animals in the Earth.

[Dee]

Valsum and Sunni, I like your quotes.

[formerly known as hf]

To be honest, I don't believe in heaven, or hell, so telling me I'm going to one and not the other means nothing to me.

If someone close to me, or someone who I respect, judges me, then I will listen and take it into account.

Apart from that, I couldn't care less what rabid conservatives, of any faith, think about me or my life choices - unless it forms the basis for laws which remove my rights on the issue.

Homosexuality is not unnatural - as the numerous examples in other species show. (I will quote if people still do not believe this)

Homosexuality is not 'dangerous' - homosexuality is not on the rise, Dee, it's just that more homosexuals are able to be public about their sexuality. And there is no danger that it will increase until it replaces heterosexuality.

As for sex with strangers and partying - that's a part of a fairly normal, socially healthy lifestyle of many young people. You can not damn homosexual people for engaging in activities that many heterosexual people also engage in.

Anal sex can be fun no matter what your sexuality, and so you can't go by saying that 'sodomy' is wrong, even if it supposedly says so in the Bible, because that damns a lot of heterosexuals with it.

AIDS is not a 'homosexual' disease. The demographic with the fastest growing HIV infection rate in Europe and the US? Single, heterosexual women. HIV infection rates have been shown to be dropping in many homosexual communities.

Homosexuality does not harm yourself, or those around you. It may upset some people, but it does no harm.

Stan: I thank you for consistently coming to these discussions with a voice of tolerance and understanding. I used to have a very dim, and frankly predjudiced view about religious people, and deemed all forms of religion, even personal faith, to be an inherently bad thing in contemporary life. It has been through talking with and meeting people like yourself that I have lost that arrogance.

[formerly known as hf]

"normal" ethics or morale is what makes us be humans

There is no such thing as "normal" ethics or morality. Anything you may consider to be a "normal" moral code, is nothing more than something specific to your context - morality and ethics change dramatically between humans, over time and space.

[Seeker]

hallucinatingfarmer, I agree with everything you say. You've pretty much summarised all the main arguments I have seen in a thread about homosexuality on a different forum. I've noticed that many arguments against homosexuals are either stereotypical or of the "unnatural" kind. eg. the "Screw and bolt" argument, which I find odd considering human nature is a lot more complex then the simplicity of a screw and bolt.
Or the "it's unnatural for Humans to do that" argument, when in reality homosexuality has been in a society for ages and has also been common in the animal kingdom. (noticeable for animals living in large groups).

However these views against homosexuals are often incredibly hard to change, not one of the people arguing against homosexuality in the other forum changed their views and in the end the thread became repetitive.

[Valsum]

morality and ethics change dramatically between humans, over time and space.

I tend to disagree with that.

[Valsum]

As for sex with strangers and partying - that's a part of a fairly normal, socially healthy lifestyle of many young people. You can not damn homosexual people for engaging in activities that many heterosexual people also engage in.

That, which is related to your AIDS speech BTW, is something I disagree with too. I mean, that lifestyle, being heterosexual or homosexual or bisexual, has been damaging society across the past century. Sure, the "liberation" of the women is great, and it was necessary, but the liberation of sexual behavior is something I as catholic cannot see as good.

Because so much sex, in the long term, makes you less likely to love and more likely to always think on the carnal aspect of a relationship. This is my opinion.

[Seeker]

As for sex with strangers and partying - that's a part of a fairly normal, socially healthy lifestyle of many young people. You can not damn homosexual people for engaging in activities that many heterosexual people also engage in.

That, which is related to your AIDS speech BTW, is something I disagree with too. I mean, that lifestyle, being heterosexual or homosexual or bisexual, has been damaging society across the past century. Sure, the "liberation" of the women is great, and it was necessary, but the liberation of sexual behavior is something I as catholic cannot see as good.

Because so much sex, in the long term, makes you less likely to love and more likely to always think on the carnal aspect of a relationship. This is my opinion.

Though does this affect you personally? I don't se how it damages our lifestyle and society too much considering most of it is done in private.