Messia... Means savior. I'm fairly shure.
Now Dee, I agree that becous he is a profit, dosen't mean he is the son of god. But, you can be a profit AND you can be the son of god at the same time. Better yet, you can be the SON OF MAN!!!
Now let me explain this to you. Jesus, when asked by the pharasies who he is, sais that he is the SON OF MAN!!! Now, the son of man refures to isaias profacy of who the MESIA would be. Isaia said that god would become the son of man, and would be the messia. So, the messia is either god, or is not the messia.
And, about jesus not dying.... HAHAHAHAH!!! That is just popycock. Now, If jesus didn't die, WE COULD NEVER HAVE BEEN FORGIVEN!!!You see, when he died, He took upon himself, all of our sins, then he went to hell(becous of the sins he took upon) and he defeated the DEVIL Wile he was doun there So that we wouldn't have to go there, if only we would exept his gift.
Also, If Jesus didn't die, THEN JESUS WOULD HAVE BEEN LYING WHEN HE TOLD THE DECIPLES that he was the same person that was ont the cross. And If Jesus lied, than he would have sined. Now, Only a compleatly unsinful person could take upon the sins of everyone in the world. So, IF HE LIED, HE WOULDN'T HAVE BEEN ABLE TO FORGIVE US OF OUR SIN!!
And really... Jesus IS god, And god (his name translated (fairly) into english) is "I am that I am" Now, "I am" Or Jawe, or(darn, i forgot the other way of pronounsing it...) Who set the laws of the univers, who layd down what is right and rong, Why would he BREAK HIS OUN LAWS?
And also, Jesus main goal in life is to forgiv us of our sin, becous he loves us so. WHY WOULD HE not do this, by Sinning, or NOT dying?
Religion
Moderators: Public Relations Department, Players Department
-
Pie
- Posts: 3256
- Joined: Sun Jun 19, 2005 3:30 am
- Location: the headquarters of P.I.E.
-
Dee
- Posts: 1985
- Joined: Tue Oct 26, 2004 8:06 am
I don't understand your language, but here is my reply:
God was not born, God does not have a son, God does not have a father. God is completely different from Jesus.
Are really your sins forgiven? If that is true, what are we still doing here? Why aren't we in heaven already??
EDIT: Jesus' main goal was to show you the right way, not to make your sins forgiven! By showing you the right path, you can make your sins forgiven.
God was not born, God does not have a son, God does not have a father. God is completely different from Jesus.
Are really your sins forgiven? If that is true, what are we still doing here? Why aren't we in heaven already??
EDIT: Jesus' main goal was to show you the right way, not to make your sins forgiven! By showing you the right path, you can make your sins forgiven.
-
Pie
- Posts: 3256
- Joined: Sun Jun 19, 2005 3:30 am
- Location: the headquarters of P.I.E.
hallucinatingfarmer wrote:You know, that quote has always made me wonder. 'Alpha and the Omega' is a modern sentence, it wouldn't have made much sense to say that in English more than 150 years ago. It makes me wonder what the original sentence was, and how it used to be translated. (The 'Begining and the End' or something similar I would guess, considering similar statements)Stan wrote:Jesus also tells John in the beginning of Revelation that, "I am the Alpha and the Omega, who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty."
Then again, he also said 'But I'm not the Messiah'
Wait
no
sorry
wrong story.
Oh, and Alpha and omega, refuring to davinity, probabbly translated frome Jawe or jehova.(AKA, I am that I am.)
When did he say this? and pleas, finish that quote 'but I'm not the Messiah'. Tell me what he said after that. Did he say 'I am not the Messiah you are looking for' or is it just that?
I Am the alpha and the Omega... Refuring to his davinity. Probably saying "I am that I am" I am, in context, can be the begining an the end, in hebrew.
Pnumerical Intuitiong Engyn
Paranormal Investigation Exorsism
Porcupine Interspecies Extra_poison
Pick In Enter
... The headquarters of P.I.E.!!!
Paranormal Investigation Exorsism
Porcupine Interspecies Extra_poison
Pick In Enter
... The headquarters of P.I.E.!!!
-
Pie
- Posts: 3256
- Joined: Sun Jun 19, 2005 3:30 am
- Location: the headquarters of P.I.E.
Dee, My sins(In my religion) Are forgiven, BECOUS I ACCEPTED JESUSES GIFT TO ME!!! Jesus will give you the gift of salvation, if you will only acept it. But god isn't going to kill me into heaven, becous I could still bring a few other people to the religion before judgment day.
Matthiew26:53 Thinkest thou that I cannot now pray to my Father, and he shall presently give me more than twelve legions of angels? 26:54 But how then shall the scriptures be fulfilled, that thus it must be?
26:53 Thinkest thou that I cannot now pray to my Father, and he shall presently give me more than twelve legions of angels?
26:54 But how then shall the scriptures be fulfilled, that thus it must be?
Before I say anything, what i ment by "goal" is the reason that he lived. Now, It sayeth right here in the bible, Although I should try and use the Quaran(Although I don't know if it will have any evedence for me...)
There is one proof that sais that Jesus's reason to be on earth, his goal, would be to save us of our sin. You see, what the jews did, is they used to sacrifise a sheep (or some animal)every year, and god would move theyre sins upon that animal. Now, JESUS WAS THE ULTIMAT SACRIFISE!! As for god making another person.. Again, jesus was raised frome the dead, and said that he was the same person. He told them exactly. And lying... Isn't one of his job requiernments(For how can god lie, If he is perfect?)
Alright. Here is a passage frome this other forum. Also, JW= Jehova's witnesses.
This man Ron gets a visit from a pair of JWs, he invites them in on the condition that they would answer a few questions regaurding the JWs.
They said they would be glad to answer any questions he might have.
Then Ron said"I guess that I really only have one question. Throughout your literature you continually say that the trinity is not taught in scripture."
The JWs smile and say'thats right, nowhere in the Bible will you find the word trinty."
Then Ron counter with telling them that the trinty is taught throughout Gods Word.
The JWs again tell him the nowhere in the Bible will you find the word trinity.
Then Ron tells them that it's a latin term meaning three in one that the word trinity it's simply a term used to describe God.Then he points out the fact that they use the term'theocratic kingdom more than any other term in thier literature.Then he asked them to show him one place in the Bible where that word can be found.
The elder Witness says" But the trinity is not rational;you can't understand it."
Ron asks"You believe the Bible, don't you?'
"Oh ,yes, we believe the Bible ," they said.
Ron tells them to put away all thier books,magazines,dictionaries ect..
Then he takes them to the Bible to Revalations he says"let's begin and you will see something very interesting develop here", he promised.
Ron turned to Rev.1:8"I am the Alpha and the Omega" says the Lord God,"who is ,and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty."
Ron asks"who is speaking here?'Iam the Alpha and Omega' say who?'
the answer"Says the Lord God, Jehovah God!"
Ron said"You are absolutely right, we believe that Alpha and Omega is Jehovah God."
Then he tells them to turn to Rev. 21:5-7
He who was seated on the throne said"I am making every thing new! Then He said" write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true." He said to me:"It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega,the Beginning and the End.To him who is thirsty I will give him to drink without cost from the spring of the water of life.He who overcomes will inherit all this, and I will be his God and he will be My son."
The two JWs say" we believe that Alpha and Omega are Jehovah God. Thats what it says."
Ron says " now turn to Rev.22:13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last,the beginning and the End.
again the JWs responded that these titles referred to Jehovah God,as in Rev.1:8
Ron continued,"there's just one more passage; do you think you could help me with it?"
"Oh, we'd be glad to."they said
Ron said"the passage is Rev. 1:17,18 ,Will you read it for me?"
They turned to the verse in thier Watchtower Bible and the elder one began to read.
When I saw Him, I fell at His feet as though dead. Then he placed His right hand on me and said"Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last"Rev.1:17
Ron said,"stop.I've been tring to figure out who the First and the Last is. Tell me who is He."
They replied,"We just saw who the First and the Last is. The First and the Last is Alpha and Omega, Jehovah God."
Ron asked," You mean to tell me the First and the Last is Jehovah God?"
They replied"Of course He's Jehovah God."
Ron answered,"Well, keep reading."
I am the Living One; I was Dead, and behold I am alive for ever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and Hades(Rev.1:18)
Ron then asked " When did Jehovah die? When did God die?"
Finally after they silently stared at ther scriptures one said"I never saw that before."
"Well" Ron said "Is this your own Bible you are using, published by the watchtower?"
he answers "yes"
Ron asked"So tell me-when did Jehovah die?"
They just kept looking at the verse. At last they quietly answered"But Jesus died."
Ron asked,"Oh,you mean Jesus is Jehovah God?"
They replied,"well,no.He can't be."
"Why not ?" Ron asked.
"Well, if Jesus is Jehovah God, that would change everything else in the Bible----everything be believe about Him."
They left.
It's In the bible. So the Jesus were talking about... two differen't people.
Matthiew26:53 Thinkest thou that I cannot now pray to my Father, and he shall presently give me more than twelve legions of angels? 26:54 But how then shall the scriptures be fulfilled, that thus it must be?
26:53 Thinkest thou that I cannot now pray to my Father, and he shall presently give me more than twelve legions of angels?
26:54 But how then shall the scriptures be fulfilled, that thus it must be?
Before I say anything, what i ment by "goal" is the reason that he lived. Now, It sayeth right here in the bible, Although I should try and use the Quaran(Although I don't know if it will have any evedence for me...)
There is one proof that sais that Jesus's reason to be on earth, his goal, would be to save us of our sin. You see, what the jews did, is they used to sacrifise a sheep (or some animal)every year, and god would move theyre sins upon that animal. Now, JESUS WAS THE ULTIMAT SACRIFISE!! As for god making another person.. Again, jesus was raised frome the dead, and said that he was the same person. He told them exactly. And lying... Isn't one of his job requiernments(For how can god lie, If he is perfect?)
Alright. Here is a passage frome this other forum. Also, JW= Jehova's witnesses.
This man Ron gets a visit from a pair of JWs, he invites them in on the condition that they would answer a few questions regaurding the JWs.
They said they would be glad to answer any questions he might have.
Then Ron said"I guess that I really only have one question. Throughout your literature you continually say that the trinity is not taught in scripture."
The JWs smile and say'thats right, nowhere in the Bible will you find the word trinty."
Then Ron counter with telling them that the trinty is taught throughout Gods Word.
The JWs again tell him the nowhere in the Bible will you find the word trinity.
Then Ron tells them that it's a latin term meaning three in one that the word trinity it's simply a term used to describe God.Then he points out the fact that they use the term'theocratic kingdom more than any other term in thier literature.Then he asked them to show him one place in the Bible where that word can be found.
The elder Witness says" But the trinity is not rational;you can't understand it."
Ron asks"You believe the Bible, don't you?'
"Oh ,yes, we believe the Bible ," they said.
Ron tells them to put away all thier books,magazines,dictionaries ect..
Then he takes them to the Bible to Revalations he says"let's begin and you will see something very interesting develop here", he promised.
Ron turned to Rev.1:8"I am the Alpha and the Omega" says the Lord God,"who is ,and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty."
Ron asks"who is speaking here?'Iam the Alpha and Omega' say who?'
the answer"Says the Lord God, Jehovah God!"
Ron said"You are absolutely right, we believe that Alpha and Omega is Jehovah God."
Then he tells them to turn to Rev. 21:5-7
He who was seated on the throne said"I am making every thing new! Then He said" write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true." He said to me:"It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega,the Beginning and the End.To him who is thirsty I will give him to drink without cost from the spring of the water of life.He who overcomes will inherit all this, and I will be his God and he will be My son."
The two JWs say" we believe that Alpha and Omega are Jehovah God. Thats what it says."
Ron says " now turn to Rev.22:13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last,the beginning and the End.
again the JWs responded that these titles referred to Jehovah God,as in Rev.1:8
Ron continued,"there's just one more passage; do you think you could help me with it?"
"Oh, we'd be glad to."they said
Ron said"the passage is Rev. 1:17,18 ,Will you read it for me?"
They turned to the verse in thier Watchtower Bible and the elder one began to read.
When I saw Him, I fell at His feet as though dead. Then he placed His right hand on me and said"Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last"Rev.1:17
Ron said,"stop.I've been tring to figure out who the First and the Last is. Tell me who is He."
They replied,"We just saw who the First and the Last is. The First and the Last is Alpha and Omega, Jehovah God."
Ron asked," You mean to tell me the First and the Last is Jehovah God?"
They replied"Of course He's Jehovah God."
Ron answered,"Well, keep reading."
I am the Living One; I was Dead, and behold I am alive for ever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and Hades(Rev.1:18)
Ron then asked " When did Jehovah die? When did God die?"
Finally after they silently stared at ther scriptures one said"I never saw that before."
"Well" Ron said "Is this your own Bible you are using, published by the watchtower?"
he answers "yes"
Ron asked"So tell me-when did Jehovah die?"
They just kept looking at the verse. At last they quietly answered"But Jesus died."
Ron asked,"Oh,you mean Jesus is Jehovah God?"
They replied,"well,no.He can't be."
"Why not ?" Ron asked.
"Well, if Jesus is Jehovah God, that would change everything else in the Bible----everything be believe about Him."
They left.
It's In the bible. So the Jesus were talking about... two differen't people.
Pnumerical Intuitiong Engyn
Paranormal Investigation Exorsism
Porcupine Interspecies Extra_poison
Pick In Enter
... The headquarters of P.I.E.!!!
Paranormal Investigation Exorsism
Porcupine Interspecies Extra_poison
Pick In Enter
... The headquarters of P.I.E.!!!
-
Stan
- Posts: 894
- Joined: Fri Mar 26, 2004 3:29 pm
- Location: KENTUCKY, USA
Pie wrote:It's In the bible. So the Jesus were talking about... two differen't people.
Yes. I agree. My sins are also forgiven because I accepted the gift. Jesus is God. I realize that isn't accepted in the Muslim faith. Either way, I believe it to be truth.
Christianity is the only faith that I know of that doesn't provides a path to salvation without human works. God did the dirty work for us all we have to do is believe it.
It reminds me of a story about my brother. My parents paid off their house a few years ago, but my brother kept sending payments to the bank because he didn't realize the house was paid in full. It was a waste of his time because the debt was already covered. He eventually got his money back with interest but he could have used that money for something useful.
By the way, Pie, that story at the end of your post is one of the best arguments I've ever heard relative to the issue of the trinity. You da man!
Stan wrote:I've never said anything worth quoting.
-
SekoETC
- Posts: 15525
- Joined: Wed May 05, 2004 11:07 am
- Location: Finland
- Contact:
Go Pie 
Jesus was forgiving sins. The Jews were appalled by it since such a right has only been given to God himself and no one else. Still Jesus said for example to the woman who'd been with many men: your sins are forgiven. Go and do not sin anymore. He said this to several people. How can people ignore it?
I've heard/read that some muslim authorities were pleading for removing the Bibles from motel rooms so that ordinary muslims couldn't be lured by false information. But can't you people decide for yourselves what's right and what's wrong? Do you need authorities to set you limitations. Even if there was a Bible in your motel room, it doesn't mean you'd have to read it. And in the other hand, no one would know if you did. So why not try it?
Jesus was forgiving sins. The Jews were appalled by it since such a right has only been given to God himself and no one else. Still Jesus said for example to the woman who'd been with many men: your sins are forgiven. Go and do not sin anymore. He said this to several people. How can people ignore it?
I've heard/read that some muslim authorities were pleading for removing the Bibles from motel rooms so that ordinary muslims couldn't be lured by false information. But can't you people decide for yourselves what's right and what's wrong? Do you need authorities to set you limitations. Even if there was a Bible in your motel room, it doesn't mean you'd have to read it. And in the other hand, no one would know if you did. So why not try it?
Not-so-sad panda
-
Dee
- Posts: 1985
- Joined: Tue Oct 26, 2004 8:06 am
-
Nalaris
- Posts: 943
- Joined: Sun Dec 04, 2005 3:08 am
Mykeyrools wrote:Before I puke from all this crap I`d just like to point out,There are MANY more than 4 gospels...I guess you only read what you`ve been told to for the last 2000 years or so.As far as Elohim referring to Christ and God and the holy spirit,yeah right sure..I think it`s more likely he and the rest of *its* alien cohorts,Time travelers,Daydreams whatever implanted that in your head.
I pity you.
Now, I was, in fact, being literal when I talked about the 'Jesus-on-God's-right-hand' thing. It's true.
Jesus was made by God first. He is the oldest. The first. And he will also live for all eternity. The last. Tadaa. Also, Joseph Smith righted a lot of wrong's made by translation errors and Evil Catholic Bishops (ECB's). It might not read that way at all in the original writing, but I don't have a Bible on me (I'm traveling) so I can't find out for sure.
I'm too lazy to find the scripture, but it did say that Moses saw God's back somewhere in there...
God can't be his own son. It's physically impossible. The trinity are three seperate people, two have bodies, the Holy Ghost is just that: a ghost, a spirit, a bodiless soul.
-
Joshuamonkey
- Owner/GAB Chair/HR Chair/ProgD
- Posts: 4537
- Joined: Sun May 01, 2005 3:17 am
- Location: Quahaki, U. S. A.
- Contact:
Jesus, Heavenly Father, the Holy Ghost. That would called the God Head. (atleast for Mormons it is) Jesus does not lie, and that's that.
......You know what, I've never heard someone so strongly in a religion where their religion has answers like that. Take that as a compliment. (though I still don't believe that)
The atonement. Jesus dies for our sins, but we have to repent. Everyone is judged by what they know, because of course it isn't fair that you didn't follow a religion you never heard of, or grew up with. There is an eternal reward, and an eternal punishment, because there can be no reward without punishment, or laws of right and wrong won't mean much. I was just reading Alma...
We believe that he never died, he was never killed. God protected him from death and made someone else who looked a lot like him be killed on that cross. God made Jesus live up there with him, and he will come back to us near the end of the world. He will kill man who is claiming to be God, and all of the true muslims will fight him. But that's another long story. I can explain if you're interested, though.
......You know what, I've never heard someone so strongly in a religion where their religion has answers like that. Take that as a compliment. (though I still don't believe that)
The atonement. Jesus dies for our sins, but we have to repent. Everyone is judged by what they know, because of course it isn't fair that you didn't follow a religion you never heard of, or grew up with. There is an eternal reward, and an eternal punishment, because there can be no reward without punishment, or laws of right and wrong won't mean much. I was just reading Alma...
https://spiritualdata.org
http://doryiskom.myminicity.com/
"Don't be afraid to be different, but be as good as you can be." - James E. Faust
I'm a mystic, play the cello, and run.
http://doryiskom.myminicity.com/
"Don't be afraid to be different, but be as good as you can be." - James E. Faust
I'm a mystic, play the cello, and run.
-
Pie
- Posts: 3256
- Joined: Sun Jun 19, 2005 3:30 am
- Location: the headquarters of P.I.E.
http://www.audio-bible.com/bible/bible.html
Go ahead, nalarus. Also, you should search around the end of the testiments, when jesus was taken up into the ski, and he said to the deciples(With the context of) "I will leave a spirit, and it will be me" So, Jesus IS god, but just in his finite form. The spirit, I don't know. Hes just really cool.
oh, and here's how we can explain how this works.
anyone here a phisisist?(sp?) Well, You would know that light, sometimes you can say light is a partical. Sometimes it's a wave. How can this be? Any phisisits out there..... You will know what I mean.
Go ahead, nalarus. Also, you should search around the end of the testiments, when jesus was taken up into the ski, and he said to the deciples(With the context of) "I will leave a spirit, and it will be me" So, Jesus IS god, but just in his finite form. The spirit, I don't know. Hes just really cool.
oh, and here's how we can explain how this works.
anyone here a phisisist?(sp?) Well, You would know that light, sometimes you can say light is a partical. Sometimes it's a wave. How can this be? Any phisisits out there..... You will know what I mean.
Pnumerical Intuitiong Engyn
Paranormal Investigation Exorsism
Porcupine Interspecies Extra_poison
Pick In Enter
... The headquarters of P.I.E.!!!
Paranormal Investigation Exorsism
Porcupine Interspecies Extra_poison
Pick In Enter
... The headquarters of P.I.E.!!!
-
formerly known as hf
- Posts: 4120
- Joined: Wed Aug 04, 2004 2:58 pm
- Location: UK
Please don't tell me that you're using this as a proof of God's existence? 'Oh, it's both a wave and a particle - that's not physically possible, so there must be a God who can make the wolrd outside of the understanding of physics'?Pie wrote:anyone here a phisisist?(sp?) Well, You would know that light, sometimes you can say light is a partical. Sometimes it's a wave. How can this be? Any phisisits out there..... You will know what I mean.
Bollocks - hairy, smell, sweaty pigs testicles.
First off, I am not a physicist, but my understanding is enough to know that light is both a particle and a wave depending on how it is being measured. 'Particles' and 'waves' aren't necessarily mutually exclusive phenomena. 'Particle' and 'wave' are descriptive terms - how something acts, how it is detected, measured etc. Light has characteristics of both descriptions, thus it is variably referred to as a wave and a particle, it is both (and possibly neither)
Whoever you vote for.
The government wins.
The government wins.
-
nateflory
- Posts: 586
- Joined: Tue Jan 17, 2006 5:54 pm
- Location: upstate, NY
I believe Pie is not really trying to "prove" the existance of God by using the electromagnetic wave/particle thing. He's merely pointing out a similar similarity in thinking. Christian thought describes God as a triune, Father/Son/Holy Spirit.
Just as light (particle? Wave?) can manifest in different ways, so can the concept of a Supreme Being. Or at least that's how I read it.
(but just to be snarky.. Didn't Jesus say I am the Way, the Truth, and the Light? - John 14:6 ... so maybe Pie is right after all! )
BTW: this is a fascinating read, and I'll refrain from throwing my views out there for now lest they through things offtrack.
One interesting thing I always wondered, for those of you theologists, is an interesting difference between Islam and Christianity. Having read briefly through a Koran I can't profess great knowledge there, and have a better grasp of the Bible...but here's my interesting observation....
Islam claims a God-given text: the Koran. The religion is centered, not on Muhammad, but on this text. The Koran is the source of truth, the manifestation of God. Christianity, by contrast, claims a God-given person. The religion is centered on Jesus, who is the manifestation of God and the source of Truth.
Just as light (particle? Wave?) can manifest in different ways, so can the concept of a Supreme Being. Or at least that's how I read it.
(but just to be snarky.. Didn't Jesus say I am the Way, the Truth, and the Light? - John 14:6 ... so maybe Pie is right after all! )
BTW: this is a fascinating read, and I'll refrain from throwing my views out there for now lest they through things offtrack.
One interesting thing I always wondered, for those of you theologists, is an interesting difference between Islam and Christianity. Having read briefly through a Koran I can't profess great knowledge there, and have a better grasp of the Bible...but here's my interesting observation....
Islam claims a God-given text: the Koran. The religion is centered, not on Muhammad, but on this text. The Koran is the source of truth, the manifestation of God. Christianity, by contrast, claims a God-given person. The religion is centered on Jesus, who is the manifestation of God and the source of Truth.
---------------------------------
"Nature may reach the same result in many ways." - Nikola Tesla
"Dare to be naïve". - "Unity is plural and, at minimum, is two." - Bucky Fuller
"Nature may reach the same result in many ways." - Nikola Tesla
"Dare to be naïve". - "Unity is plural and, at minimum, is two." - Bucky Fuller
-
Stan
- Posts: 894
- Joined: Fri Mar 26, 2004 3:29 pm
- Location: KENTUCKY, USA
-
Jack Dudeman
- Posts: 140
- Joined: Sun Oct 17, 2004 10:43 pm
- Location: Knoxville, TN USA
-
Dee
- Posts: 1985
- Joined: Tue Oct 26, 2004 8:06 am
No one made God.
And I believe that God is not Jesus, nor Jesus is God. And even Muhammed is not God. He's just a normal person like you and me.
However, where God came from... Well that's something your brain can't handle... We learned here on earth that everything has a start and an end. Now that shouldn't be necessarily true about God..
That's the kind of thing you'll find out when you die. If you thought about it now you might go crazy. Literally.
And I believe that God is not Jesus, nor Jesus is God. And even Muhammed is not God. He's just a normal person like you and me.
However, where God came from... Well that's something your brain can't handle... We learned here on earth that everything has a start and an end. Now that shouldn't be necessarily true about God..
That's the kind of thing you'll find out when you die. If you thought about it now you might go crazy. Literally.
Return to “Non-Cantr-Related Discussion”
Who is online
Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest