Religion

[formerly known as hf]

Oh, and the thing is, what ever religion you do have, its still better to have one!

No
I would much rather people kept the the morals and ethics they believe in, because they believe it does good.
Rather than the possible threat of eternal damnation.

'I try to be good 'cos if I'm not I'll go to hell'
'I try to be good because I care about others'

I'd much rather people went for the second sentence, it indicates that someone has at least thought about what they consider 'good', in terms of what others fell, rather than some possible divine damnation.

And Joshua

what's wrong about drilling for oil?

1) It destroys the environment directly
---Drilling is increasingly in wilderness areas, which are otherwise untouched by human development. The examples in North USA are probably the most pertinent. They were suppsoedly a national reserve - areas put aside for the protection of unharmed wildlife, until GW Bush allowed drilling.

2)It destroys the environment indirectly
---Burning oil for fuel - whether in your gas-guzzling humvee, 4x4 or suv, produces pollution. This is directly toxic to both humans and wildlife

3)It contriubutes to global warming
--- whatever propaganda you might be hearing from the current US government or big industry - the scientific consensus is that burning fossil fuels (oil, gas, coal etc.) is having an impact on global climate - using oil perpetuates this damaging staus quo

4)It makes you reliant on those who you buy oil from.
---The most powerful country in the world? Not the US - Saudi Arabia - if the Saudis, for whatever reason, blocked oil exports to the US - it would bring the whole country to its knees.

etc. etc.

[Joshuamonkey]

I rarely have dreams that I remember from being fully asleep. And one night, I had a nightmare. Everyone was going to some big field and stuff and we were being forced to go or something, and then everyone was drinking or eating something that was poison, and I was like, no! Its poison! Can't you tell! leave! And then I ran away and they chased me and were trying to kill me. I had this long chase in my house and in my yard and then my dad safed me or something.

That morning, during social studies my social studies teacher was on again talking about something that we really don't need to know to get a good grade (social studies teachers seem to have a habbit of that, and we get in trouble sometimes if we don't listen) Well, she was talking about a cult where someone was really persuading and started his own colt an got many people to sell roses on the streets for him so he was super rich, and then to escape United States laws, he got everyone to leave the United States to somewhere in Southern America. Peolpe were leaving their families and stuff. Everyone there was super poor adn stuff and had bad conditions while the leader was super rich, and they couldn't leave. They were forced to stay. And the families of the people there got the FBI on it and when he heard they were coming he forced all the people in his cult to drink some poison, he had some guards and stuff. He forced the mothers to give it to their own children and then they died too. At the end, he drank it to and the guards were suppose to but they didn't. (whose gonna force them?) And it was a bunch of people.

Sorry about that long post...atleast its about religion.

[sanchez]

That was Jonestown. In Guyana. And it's where the expression 'drink the kool-aid' comes form. Aren't you sorry you know that now?

[Joshuamonkey]

1) It destroys the environment directly
---Drilling is increasingly in wilderness areas, which are otherwise untouched by human development. The examples in North USA are probably the most pertinent. They were suppsoedly a national reserve - areas put aside for the protection of unharmed wildlife, until GW Bush allowed drilling.

that reserve in ANWR is pretty desolate, and drilling only needs a tiny part of it. Its not really that much damage.

2)It destroys the environment indirectly
---Burning oil for fuel - whether in your gas-guzzling humvee, 4x4 or suv, produces pollution. This is directly toxic to both humans and wildlife

We still need it, its not that much toxic, I'll get over it. We probably safe tons of more lives by the use of iol anyway, you have any idea how important it is?

3)It contriubutes to global warming
--- whatever propaganda you might be hearing from the current US government or big industry - the scientific consensus is that burning fossil fuels (oil, gas, coal etc.) is having an impact on global climate - using oil perpetuates this damaging staus quo

Why does everyone keep bringing this up!? Global warming is happpening so slow its not that big of a problem, and anyway, 500 years later we'll get use to it. (just go to Pluto by then and you'll be cold again)

4)It makes you reliant on those who you buy oil from.
---The most powerful country in the world? Not the US - Saudi Arabia - if the Saudis, for whatever reason, blocked oil exports to the US - it would bring the whole country to its knees.

That would be a reason to drill. The more the United States drills the less we depend on foreign oil. And no, just stopping to use oil isn't giong to work, though I'm not saying that conservation isn't bad, as well as alternative energy sources, but I've studied these a lot. Wait another 100 years and see how things are then.

[Joshuamonkey]

That was Jonestown. In Guyana. And it's where the expression 'drink the kool-aid' comes form. Aren't you sorry you know that now?

Thanks a lot. (I'm being sarcastic )

[Stan]

What's wrong with trying to do good for people, because you care about people?

As far as hell...well I didn't believe in hell before I became a Christian. The fear of hell was definitely NOT my motivation for becoming a Christian. I became Christian because I believed in God. And if I believe in God then I believe He's bigger than me. If He's bigger than me and if He created me then He must love me. If He loves me then I should love Him back.

When I came to that point I told Him I did love Him. That's why and how I became a Christian. It had nothing to do with hell.

*shrugs*

Either way, it makes more sense than,

'I'm going to do the right thing only if I believe it is the right thing and as long as it serves my purpose.'

[Joshuamonkey]

I would much rather people kept the the morals and ethics they believe in, because they believe it does good.
Rather than the possible threat of eternal damnation.

Either way, religion helps people know what the morals are they should follow. Want to go find out how many people think smoking or drinking isn't bad?

And I never said anything abuot being nice as one of the standards... yes, people should just be nice anyway, but for one, if you ask heavenly father for guidance, he can help you do good for other people(that's my religous opinion), second, people can really be more convinced with doing stuff if they know there is an eternal reward in the end. And why is that such a bad thing? What's so wrong with being nice? Because they are smart enough to not want to go to the bad place and they have a reason? Following moral and standards helps in Earth life as well...

What's wrong with trying to do good for people, because you care about people?

And it also makes you care about people more often.

[formerly known as hf]

Are you seriously trying to suggest religious people are always more 'caring' people than aethists, simply because they believe in a religion?

[N-Aldwitch]

Are you seriously trying to suggest religious people are always more 'caring' people than aethists, simply because they believe in a religion?

I wouldn't say always and I'd be bias if I said mostly.

You can't generalise, @ whoever made the comment that sparked HF's comment.

[Stan]

I didn't generalize. I was quite specific. I was talking about me.

And I'm not "seriously" talking about religious or atheists. I'm talking about Ed Hall a.k.a. Stan. I can't speak for HF, Jerry Falwell or anyone else for that matter. No one is the same. That holds for Atheist or Zealot or somewhere in between.

I do find it interesting how HF wants to clump all "religious" people together though he is often one to talk about how a person shouldn't generalize or stereotype.

Go back and read what I wrote. It's only a couple of posts above.

[Dee]

I wish Muhammed was still alive.

About that Muhammed post... you actually believe that? Guess people have there religions.... Are you saying Allah is the one god? Well, if it is, then atleast obviously that person probably visited some other people, and gave them orders and stuff, and that's were some other religions started.

Have you even read my post?

What, exactly, are you asking I believe in?

Yes, Allah is the one and only God. That's what we believe in, and it is the truth.

That "person" was an angel. His name was Jebreel (Gabriel). I don't know if he visited Jesus, but I think that he probably visited Mary.

Ah, it's 2 am.. Not in the mood for arguing. Good night!

[formerly known as hf]

My previous post was direct at Joshua, who had previously said that it's better that someone believes in a religion, of some kind, rather than none.

As for generalising about 'religious' people, I certainly tried to avoid generalisation. Admitedly, my pieces about ethics solely for fear of godly wrath was a generalisation - I'm well aware that in day-to-day descisions, hell-fear or similar, hardly registers for most people. It was again in response to Joshua's comments about religion teaching morality - I find it appaling the extent to which priests and the like have wielded the fear of God to 'keep people in line' over the years.

[Joshuamonkey]

Have you even read my post?

Of course I read your post. I wouldn't respond without reading the whole post. I was just clarifying with Allah. Allah is basically another name for God or Heavenly Father? Do Muslims believe in angels?

I find it appaling the extent to which priests and the like have wielded the fear of God to 'keep people in line' over the years.

Even Jesus said 'Blessed are those who fear God.' If you don't believe me I can go look it up, though I guess the New Testament doesn't really mean a thing to you does it?

[Nalaris]

No scripture means anything to HF. That's the point of the debate.

I know that my religion has a much better niceness average than atheists (by atheists I mean anyone who doesn't believe in God and says so, no matter how many times they go to a worship session for him per week). Can't speak for any other. Not that every Mormon on the planet is a symbol of total compassion, but we've got a much better average than almost everyone else.

I do good because I want to do good. I refrain from doing bad because when I do bad I know I am doing wrong and that I'm going to regret it later on (on this Earth, too, not to mention afterward). Not to say I never do wrong, but I try not to. Usually I succeed.

One big thing about sin: Christ bled for every mans sin in Gesemene(sp?), right? So every sin I commit caused him pain. That's quite a bit to think about.

Of course, none of this means anything to any non-Christian, but by my count there are only two of those involved in this debate right now...though I could be wrong.

[Mykey]

I am sorry, that I interrupt you, but it is necessary for me little bit more information.