Religion

[Phalynx]

J I think in the end it boils down to what a person believes is right or wrong within a given situation.

That again is the nub of the argument, no matter what you do you cant argue with fuzzy logic like that... because it has no internal validity its unassailable...

*gives up*

[formerly known as hf]

Phalynx was correct when he said that the empowered women are the ones with the money to have the abortion. But I would argue that those women still have the choice of control over their own bodies, even if it was their own mistake. I'm not going to cover that again, life of possible human being vs choice of woman to have control over her own body, is begining to feel like a game of pong.

I do think it's wrong, though, to see abortion as a middle class phenomenon. All women from all ages and walks of life have abortions. My argument about female empowerment was simply to get the point across that vast numbers of women still do not have full control over their sexuality. They should at least be given control over their bodies in terms of pregnancy.

Nalaris, I don't know why you thought we all agree abortion is evil? I certainly don't think that.
As for 'global south', I use that term in the academic sense, as an alternative to 'the third world'. It's more descriptive of the reality of economic differences in the contemporary world.
As for us coming from other nations, that inda falls through, as Phalynx is a Brit too. I think the greater, and most obvious, divide is religious. which kinda brings me back to my earlier statement, that you should not inflict your religious values upon others.

Stan is right about child rearing in much of the global south. Having children is a means of survival, they can work (farm or factory) and they can help at the home, and the more you have, the better supported you will be in later life. Abortions in the global south are generally linked to prostitution and rape (both of which usually have significantly higher rates)

As for Phalynx's argument about the problems with using abortion-as-birth-control. You're right, it is worrying that women do turn to abortion for birth control. But Firstly, and foremostly, that's a woman's right of choice. Do you not think women know that abortion isn't a safe or the best form of birth control? Consider Missy's questions. Abortion is never going to be an easy decision for a woman, it's not like all these woman have some kind of blase attitude to it.

Even with the dangers and the ethical dilemas, which I'm sure women are very aware of when they make a descision. If they have considered the implications, and have made a descision, shouldn't they have that right of choice?

[Phalynx]

Even with the dangers and the ethical dilemas, which I'm sure women are very aware of when they make a descision. If they have considered the implications, and have made a descision, shouldn't they have that right of choice?

I would like you to define 'right' (not as in right and wrong), and tell me who or what you think gives you rights?

[formerly known as hf]

I mean right, as in 'human rights' - freedoms of expression, choice, opportunities, freedom from discrimination etc.

Rights are generally decided by law - occasionally with international guidelines. What is law is decided by whatever means a certain country decides laws, which may or may not be democratic
i.e: it is a person's right to vote, to gather peacefully, but not to steal, drive a car whilst drunk, murder etc. etc.

Abortion is a choice. And I think that it should be a woman's right to have that choice.

I understand that you disagree, and equate abortion with murder. I obvioulsy disagree wholeheartedly with that.

In any case, considering that out-lawing abortion is basically an impossibility and potentially causing more harm, this whole thing is a bit of a moot point.

[Phalynx]

So the law gives you your rights?

Can I ask a supplementary question.. what country are you in and what rights do you actually have?
Before you start you can eliminate anything that requires you to have money - the right to buy or pay for something is not a universal right, its just an expression of the market place - after all if you have enough money you can buy vitrually anything.

[formerly known as hf]

So the law gives you your rights?

To most intents and purposes, yes. What I can and can not do without fear of punishment is defined by the laws of, in my case, the UK.

Unfortunately, many rights that I would have considered fairly fundamental, such as freedom of expression and peaceful gathering, have been severly reduced by recent 'anti-terrorist' and 'anti-anti-social behaviour' regulations.

You are also entirely right about money. In many cases, money can over-ride what rights are supposedly enshrined in law, allowing you to inringe upon the rights of others if you have the money. Also, the actual enjoyment of freedoms and rights, are, unfortunately, often reliant on money.

Rights and freedoms of choice are also restricted by those around you. Someone may have the right to live free of discrimination on mental, ethnic, physical or other grounds, but the reality is different. In this, law is supposed to defend those rights by punishing those who infringe upon those freedoms, unfortuantely, this doesn't always happen.

I am not naive enough to suggest that the law is the be-all and end-all, but in considering what a person is free to do, and not to do, that's a fairly substantial starting-point.

You could argue that, for some people, their religious or other moral/ethical beliefs have a stronger bearing on what they consider their rights, than any law.

[Phalynx]

I'm sure you are more knowledgable about these things than me but we don't have a formal constitution in the UK, such that we have is formed by a collection of laws and precedents. We didn't have a 'bill of rights' until The Human Rights Act incorporated the European Convention on Human Rights. with the followinf 'human rights':

* right to life
* prohibition of torture
* prohibition of slavery and forced labour
* right to liberty and security
* right to a fair trial
* no punishment without law
* right to respect for private and family life
* freedom of thought, conscience and religion
* freedom of expression
* freedom of assembly and association
* right to marry
* prohibition of discrimination
* protection of property
* right to education
* right to free elections
* abolition of the death penalty

The things is we have a right to live, but no guarantee or right of quality of life. We don't have the right to medical treatment in law (despite talk of patients charter and patient's rights) it's nearly all precedent and custom and practice.

I don't think people have the right to have cosmetic surgery, or for that matter to terminate troublesome elderly relatives and we don't have the right to have an abortion. There are many countires where abortion is legally permitted but that doesn't constitute a right. I find the term 'right to choose' emotive bollocks, and the adoption of the term 'right to life' whilst more correctly applied has also taken on a different meaning, so let's have no more pointless talk of rights...

[Pie]

...... Ok, so what does this have to do with religion?

I have to agree, that there(have i alredy said this?) is one tru riligion, or lack of one, or beleif.

Alright... I'm going to scroll through this place and try to find a debait....

Right, i found one.

Abortions CLEARLY are killing somthing living(scientificly yes, it needs shelter, air, nutrience, everything that makes somthing living) and that embreyo isn't just a part of the womons body, becous the embryo is controllig itself, and there aren't any nerv controlls conecting the womons brain to the baby(thus, the baby has to be a contious being, becous the baby is STILL MOVOING WITHOUGHT THE MOM!!!) There isn't much more than that. Oh.. and abortions cous problems with birth later in life... so it's alot better if you just either get your tubes tied, cous thats what abortion acomplishes.

And now I realise, that with ^ that said, the only people who need abortions would be tenagers, or streetwakers(to put it nicely)or people who have been misfortuned in life. And with teenagers... There need's to be a parent consent. Is there alredy? becous if there isn't, I HAVE SOMTHING TO BE MAD ABOUT!!!! HURAY!!! Ehem... with streetwalkers(again, i'm putting it nicely) the only thing I can say, is... you should have gone to colladge... with the misfortunate... I can understand this... but can't you just freez the embryo? is it hard to just freez the embryo, giving the embryo a chance to live, not to just be thrown away?

OK, I've got to go to school... so.. BYE!!!

[Pirate Lass]

OK< without getting into the whole ethical issue I have to correct a few things here....

The baby has to be a contious being, becous the baby is STILL MOVOING WITHOUGHT THE MOM!!!

The fetus is not moving until a certain point in development. Abortions are not generally recomended after 15 weeks of gestation. Brain waves are generally noticed after 48 days and after 8 weeks do you generally see movement under ultrasound.

Oh.. and abortions cous problems with birth later in life... so it's alot better if you just either get your tubes tied, cous thats what abortion acomplishes.

This is not always the case, but in the scenario of a later term miscarriage (happens naturally) or abortion, yes - there is a higer chance of damage. Please note though, that just "get your tubes tied" isn't quite that easy. It's VERY difficult to get a doctor to approve that type of procedure if you are a.) under 30 years of age or b.) have not had a few children already. If you have a medical condition that is a different scenario of course.

Ehem... with streetwalkers(again, i'm putting it nicely) the only thing I can say, is... you should have gone to colladge...

College has nothing to do with it - there are corporate CEO's and GM's who do not have a college degree - and there are homeless people and crack whores who probably have a college education.

With the misfortunate... I can understand this... but can't you just freez the embryo? is it hard to just freez the embryo, giving the embryo a chance to live, not to just be thrown away?

No, you cannot do this - though I wouldn't be suprised if they could do embryo transfer (I know we do it for horses). But this is a VERY costly process, and the average person could not afford it.

[Valsum]

I'm a very religious person, I'm catholic, and thus I think it's the true religion and the true church

[formerly known as hf]

I find the term 'right to choose' emotive bollocks

I find describing abortion as murder just as much emotive bollocks

[Nalaris]

I have no problems with abortion previous to that period in which the baby is actually alive (i.e. moving, thinking, etc.). I'm against having sex at random because you know you can get an abortion because that's allowing the need for sex to take control, thus making you weaker. Without going into religion at all it makes your lifestyle worse off.

Instinct can and is controlled. Very few people actually put forth the effort to do so these days, but it is more than possible.

I do live in the US, by the way.

When I have more time I'll answer that massive list of questions (unless I get bored of this dumb abortion debate).

I don't try to 'force my religion' on others. I tell them about it, tell them I personally know it to be correct, and tell them that they can be apart of it. Ultimately, it is theirs to choose. Wasn't it Lucifer who suggested that everyone be forced to follow the correct path?

[fishfin]

If i remember right babies (inside the mother) at three days of age produce the brain waves required to determine that a person is alive (outside the mother)

I am a prodistant who bieleves abortion is murder (and that sex should only be had inside of marriage).

[Antichrist_Online]

Actually brain patterns can continue after clinical death so that is a poor example as they are also automatic electrochemical reactions. The test for clinical death is response to four different stimuli, if there is no response to any the person is dead.

[formerly known as hf]

I am a prodistant who bieleves abortion is murder (and that sex should only be had inside of marriage).

I'd be more convinced if you could spell your religion correctly. Unless this is some minor Christian wing I haven't heard of?