Religion

[Stan]

I never argued one way or the other on rape pregnancy.

And what does wealth have to do with getting pregnant? In the US pregnancy occurs during sexual intercourse not financial transactions.

I'm not trying to be a smart ass, but you're unneccesarily complicating a somewhat uncomplicated process.

Bottom line: There are ways to avoid getting pregnant (unless you're raped, of course).

[Hellzon]

The bigger question is why are people getting pregnant if they don't want to?

There are ways to avoid that aren't there?

Must. Resist. Godwin's. Law.
Condoms break, pills fail, heck, even vasectomies can fail. Nothing is foolproof. And even if you believe the average person has (or can be expected to have) the will to practise abstinence (I don't), people get raped.

Simply put: Stan, you're wrong.

/Hellzon

[formerly known as hf]

It's relative in the eye of the beholder maybe, but truly it isn't relative. There's right and there's wrong. Haven't we been down this path already?

You may think so, I don't, deadboy doesn't seem to either. Right and wrong exist only in the eye of the beholder. Even if there is a unversal right and wrong defined by a deity, we can never know that right or wrong for certain, thus the human experience of right and wrong will only ever be one of relative terms.

And, yes, I am rehearsing for my Broadway debut as a stuck record.

I think you hit the nail on the head, though, Nalaris. The bigger question is why are people getting pregnant if they don't want to?

There are ways to avoid that aren't there?

And what does wealth have to do with getting pregnant? In the US pregnancy occurs during sexual intercourse not financial transactions.

Ok, let's put it another way, unwanted pregnancy generally correlates with educational level. Educational level generally correlates with wealth, so the wealth has a relation to unwanted pregnancy via proxy.

Unwanted pregnancies happen for a VERY large number of reasons. Failed contraception is one, although that is rare. Rape is another, less rare, but still uncommon.
Drunkeness is another big cause, and just as prevalent no matter what your wealth or intelligence.

Pressure is probably the greatest one. A lot of unwanted, especially teenage, pregnancies are because the woman just does not feel she can say no. Reasons for this may be due to self esteem, culture, intelligence etc.

We all make mistakes. We all make mistakes for stupid reasons, reasons which we could have possibly avoided. But, where possible, shouldn't we be allowed to correct those mistakes?

[Stan]

Must. Resist. Godwin's. Law.

That's classic! I've never heard of that. But, I can't be wrong according to the relativism everyone seems to have.

HF, I hear you. But answer this question yes or no. It is a simple question. Answer it with a simple yes or no. Then make your argument.

Is there a way to not become pregnant?

[formerly known as hf]

You ask a question which can't have a simple yes or no answer. It depends on the circumstances.

EDIT: You're also begining to sound like you think it's the solely woman's fault if she gets pregnant or not? And that she always has free choice in the matter?

[deadboy]

And therefore the answer is no.....

By saying it depends on circumstances you are admitting that there are circumstances in which you can become pregnant without wanting it. Which means that the answer is no

[Stan]

Well there you have it folks. There's no way in the world NOT to get pregnant. None...at least according to HF and Deadboy.

How can there be any logical discussion without honest answers?

By the way, it's not the woman's "fault" as you call it, for a woman to get pregnant. But short of rape I know of 1 good way for a woman NOT to get pregnant. It might not be something you as a man might want to hear, but there is one good way.

[Nixit]

Is it abstinance, Stan?

*crosses his fingers*

[Dee]

Is there a way to not become pregnant?

Actually, the answer is yes, but it doesn't always work. So we have to search for other solutions, i.e. abortion.

I think we should split this from the original topic.

Edit:

By the way, it's not the woman's "fault" as you call it, for a woman to get pregnant. But short of rape I know of 1 good way for a woman NOT to get pregnant. It might not be something you as a man might want to hear, but there is one good way.

Can I know?

[Phalynx]

Hmm I said I wouldn't say anything because I was a man and therefore not qualified but it doesn't seem to be stopping any of you other fellas!


For me abortion equates to murder, you can rationalise it if you like, there are circumstances where you could seek to justify both things.

It's not top of my list of things to get worked up about because I can't do much about it, and the people involved make their choices, and have to answer for them - I tend to think that in our western culture people have a moral centre and if they choose to rationalise things and ignore it good luck to them!

My point being if I could put something right I would start on multinational companies and poverty, on the rationale that these criminals actually abuse, starve maybe murder, with total impunity and sometimes the backing of corrupt governemtns.

I wouldn't want a fundamentalist governemnt but I wish Christians would be more political in trying implement the teachings of christ....

[Nixit]

I wouldn't want a fundamentalist governemnt but I wish Christians would be more political in trying implement the teachings of christ....

Excuse me? What are you saying here?

[Missy]

I think the reason why we have abortion rests majorly on the fact that Christains can't keep to themselves in the first place.

Ya know the old? Mom I'm pregnant. "Well dear daughter, you have to get rid of the baby or else we're never speaking with you again because you're shaming the family. What will all the people at the chruch say when your belly bulges and they find out you had sex before you were married?"


It might have been supported more, that, if you make your bed you sleep in it, if people didn't start shaming at things that weren't any of their bussiness.

[formerly known as hf]

Stan, I did give an 'honest' answer. What would have been less honest would have to been to give you a 'straight' yes or no answer, when I don;t think such an answer exists.

But short of rape I know of 1 good way for a woman NOT to get pregnant. It might not be something you as a man might want to hear, but there is one good way.

I'm sorry, but you are damned naive if you think that saying 'no' is something women can feel they are able to say at all times. Lots of women are still brought up to think that they can not say to men, and lots of men are frightening to the extent that a woman can not feel she can say no.

I wouldn't want a fundamentalist governemnt but I wish Christians would be more political in trying implement the teachings of christ....

More?? In terms of the US, I can hardly think of what more the Christian lobby could do to gain more leverage... Thankfully, Phalynx, us Brits live in a country where people generally don't go around telling others that they should live their lives and make their choices based upon religious beliefs that theperson making the choice may well not subscribe to.

I want to be free to make my own choices and mistakes, and not have to live by a religious doctrine made law.

[Phalynx]

I said

the teachings of christ....

not

religious doctrines

Some aethists have, at least partially, followed Christ's teaching!

HF for someone who told me off because I'm not a woman you sure jump to a lot of conclusions and ideas about women....

If there is duress than as far as I am concerned thats rape, you don't need to hold a knife at someone's throat to be a rapist... Ever shagged someone when they are drunk, unless their expressed their intentions when they were sober that in my opinion thats rape! Ever used the fact that you are older and more expereinced to persuade a girl, thats rape (not informed consent). I have some sympathy with the feminist matra that all men are potential rapists... But then nearly everyone is a thief and nearly everyone is a potential murder...

Such is life.

(BTW HF I am not suggesting you personally have done any of these things... its 'you' in the kinda manipulative personalising but general kinda way)

[Stan]

Ya know the old? Mom I'm pregnant. "Well dear daughter, you have to get rid of the baby or else we're never speaking with you again because you're shaming the family. What will all the people at the chruch say when your belly bulges and they find out you had sex before you were married?"

I think that's part of it, sure. But in the US 43% (or so) of abortions are conducted on women that have had an abortion before.

As far as not getting pregnant, uh...yeah...someone can abstain from sex to avoid getting pregnant. It is possible to do. We're talking about human beings with minds and will power...not dogs that are driven purely by instinct.

Human beings are capable of taking control of their emotions and instincts (unless of course, there are mental issues). This doesn't mean all humans take control of their emotions and instincts. It's hard...probably near impossible. That being said, when it comes to sex that will power only needs to last about an hour at a time.

For those that don't know, if you don't have sex you won't get pregnant. There are few guarantees in life, but that's one of them.

On the abstinence part...for those sexually active I can provide an example for you as to how powerful you are over your urges.

Have you ever had to abstain in a particular instance because your partner didn't want to or for some other reason? If you have ever had to, then you know it is possible. If you didn't "take" the sex you were wanting for whatever reason, then you abstained and you have proven to yourself that it can be done given the right motivator (like not going to jail or not pissing off your spouse/signficant other). Whatever the reason you did it.

I personally don't buy the argument that because something is hard it can't be done. I've succeeded in doing many things in my life that are seemingly impossible or very hard. When I try and I fail, at least I have learned something from the experience. I even try again, sometimes.

I think you've heard people tell you that you can achieve almost anything you try to do if you put your mind to it. Well, this is one of those "almost anythings".

Go ahead, let the flaming begin because someone had the nerve to propose that a human learn to control themselves.