Coin Presses
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Rob Maule
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Maybe you wouldn't need to use metal for coins. Though that would give a use to copper or tin. Perhaps sand (mud), stone, or wood could be used. They are the most widely found resources, I believe. Or even animal products: feathers, hides, etc. Governments that wanted to use them as currency could find a way to limit how ordinary people obtain them.
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Solfius
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Solfius
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Rob Maule wrote:Maybe you wouldn't need to use metal for coins. Though that would give a use to copper or tin. Perhaps sand (mud), stone, or wood could be used. They are the most widely found resources, I believe. Or even animal products: feathers, hides, etc. Governments that wanted to use them as currency could find a way to limit how ordinary people obtain them.
I've thought about that, but limiting is the problem: how on earth do you go about doing it? I think that also most people demand a full proof currency before using it as well
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Rob Maule
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Solfius
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if there are unique species in the area that could be controlled, but the problem still remains with regards to areas out of the control of the government, where animals are and they can't regulate what happens to them, soomeone might walk into town with a whole load of legal money, but not gained the proper way, messing things up
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watermelonnose
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Solfius
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watermelonnose
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The free market wouldn't prevent fraud. What I was referring to is that the government has to use force to make their money acceptable where the free market relies on the voluntary choice of the participants. With competition in the market place the most useful money system will evolve. Governments usually don't allow competition in the money system since they lose too much control over peoples lives that way. With out tools for making notes or coins non-forge able there is the danger of fraud. If the coins had intrinsic value, short supply and high demand, fraud wouldn't be possible.
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Solfius
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yes fraud would be possible, by introducing coins from outside the system, making them yourself would be fraud.
why does money have to be so complicated??
My approach:
set down a list --> x amount of y = n coins etc etc
back it up, use it wherever possible etc.
if you don't like it don't use it.
Now why doesn't that work?
I don't get what you are saying about competition in the market place etc etc.
What I don't get most of all is how the marketplace will be able to produce a money system that the government can't? Surely whatever the market place can come up with so too can the govment? they are both people
why does money have to be so complicated??
My approach:
set down a list --> x amount of y = n coins etc etc
back it up, use it wherever possible etc.
if you don't like it don't use it.
Now why doesn't that work?
I don't get what you are saying about competition in the market place etc etc.
What I don't get most of all is how the marketplace will be able to produce a money system that the government can't? Surely whatever the market place can come up with so too can the govment? they are both people
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watermelonnose
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I wasn't saying to introduce coins from out side the system. In fact I don't think that would be a good idea.
It wouldn't matter if coins with intrinsic value were made by anyone since the value was in the coin itself. Real world example of the past: A miner pans for gold and melts it down into a one ounce disk. He goes into a store and the retailer weighs the gold and sells the miner products worth an ounce of gold. It didn't matter who made the coin the government mint or the miner since the value was in the gold ( coin ) itself. No fraud was involved just an exchange of values.
As a side note the use of paper currency not redeemable in substance at the treasury is fraud of the highest order. That is what governments get away with.
It is true that government could offer the same type of money as the market, but the market is more dynamic and the motivation is to make the best most useful product where governments usually uses force to introduce and make people comply with theirs!
Don't get me wrong I was talking theoretically. It would be fun in the game to see what would happen when each area could develop their own money. Free market or government.
It wouldn't matter if coins with intrinsic value were made by anyone since the value was in the coin itself. Real world example of the past: A miner pans for gold and melts it down into a one ounce disk. He goes into a store and the retailer weighs the gold and sells the miner products worth an ounce of gold. It didn't matter who made the coin the government mint or the miner since the value was in the gold ( coin ) itself. No fraud was involved just an exchange of values.
As a side note the use of paper currency not redeemable in substance at the treasury is fraud of the highest order. That is what governments get away with.
It is true that government could offer the same type of money as the market, but the market is more dynamic and the motivation is to make the best most useful product where governments usually uses force to introduce and make people comply with theirs!
Don't get me wrong I was talking theoretically. It would be fun in the game to see what would happen when each area could develop their own money. Free market or government.
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Solfius
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watermelonnose wrote:I wasn't saying to introduce coins from out side the system. In fact I don't think that would be a good idea.
I agree, that's what I was asking about, ways to stop that, be it coins or materials being used as currency
watermelonnose wrote:It wouldn't matter if coins with intrinsic value were made by anyone since the value was in the coin itself. Real world example of the past: A miner pans for gold and melts it down into a one ounce disk. He goes into a store and the retailer weighs the gold and sells the miner products worth an ounce of gold. It didn't matter who made the coin the government mint or the miner since the value was in the gold ( coin ) itself. No fraud was involved just an exchange of values.
I think I'm beginning to graps your idea now. It's a bit like the trade system at the moment, you get something valuable and trade it, but with coins the wealth is more easily transferred and can be used as an indicator of wealth that can be exchanged indirectly for goods you want, rther than a direct trade off.
watermelonnose wrote:As a side note the use of paper currency not redeemable in substance at the treasury is fraud of the highest order. That is what governments get away with.
but if everyone gives the paper currency the same value, does it not take on an intristic value like you mentioned above? to adapt a proverb: "value is in the mind of the beholder". Hence is it still fraud?
watermelonnose wrote:It is true that government could offer the same type of money as the market, but the market is more dynamic and the motivation is to make the best most useful product where governments usually uses force to introduce and make people comply with theirs!
I can't envisage how a market is more dynamic than a government, can you expand further?
watermelonnose wrote:Don't get me wrong I was talking theoretically. It would be fun in the game to see what would happen when each area could develop their own money. Free market or government.
Yeah, it's interesting to see all the different approaches develop. Also, I hope I didn't come across as hostile or irritated at you, I thought perhaps my last post seemed that way a bit. It was fustration at myself and the way I couldn't understand what you were dirving at.
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watermelonnose
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The reason the market is more dynamic than government is it creates a momentary system from the top down. In the real world the system is designed to benefit the government not the people. The market creates the system from the bottom up by all of the individual choices of all the people in the economy. The system the market creates changes and evolves automatically driven by the needs of the people. In Cantr this probably won't happen much because there is not a big enough group in any one area for a lot of competition to take place.
The power that the government has to print paper currency without substance backing has made taxation unnecessary. The main reason there is taxation is to take the excess currency that the government has spent into the economy out of circulation, thus curbing the inflation caused by the government print excess money. This is theft by the government on a grand scale and even though people on a personal level us it for exchanging values the initial act of the government or the central bank spending it into circulation is definitely fraud. The government only has to pay printing costs of $.03 U.S. for each bill no mater what denomination.
Cantr now is a barter economy. The next step in the evolving economy is bartering against one commodity as the standard. That is how the gold standard came about and the beginning of money.
No, I didn't think you were hostile, I am sorry if I have rambled on about this subject that has more to do with the real world than Cantr. My main point in arguing was to make sure that I would be able to develop a money system backed by resources. All I would need is a note or something that was not forge able and easily transportable.
As far a programming in something I don't know what would work best.
I like the idea of a wax seal for notes that would be numbered like a key but also having the option of being destroyed.
If characters couldn't change their name to another characters name than sealed envelopes would work as money.
The power that the government has to print paper currency without substance backing has made taxation unnecessary. The main reason there is taxation is to take the excess currency that the government has spent into the economy out of circulation, thus curbing the inflation caused by the government print excess money. This is theft by the government on a grand scale and even though people on a personal level us it for exchanging values the initial act of the government or the central bank spending it into circulation is definitely fraud. The government only has to pay printing costs of $.03 U.S. for each bill no mater what denomination.
Cantr now is a barter economy. The next step in the evolving economy is bartering against one commodity as the standard. That is how the gold standard came about and the beginning of money.
No, I didn't think you were hostile, I am sorry if I have rambled on about this subject that has more to do with the real world than Cantr. My main point in arguing was to make sure that I would be able to develop a money system backed by resources. All I would need is a note or something that was not forge able and easily transportable.
As far a programming in something I don't know what would work best.
I like the idea of a wax seal for notes that would be numbered like a key but also having the option of being destroyed.
If characters couldn't change their name to another characters name than sealed envelopes would work as money.
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Meh
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If you wanted to skip programmng for the time being maybe the Resource Department could implement this for now.
Have a new coin press or whatever it should be known as.
If someone builds it they contact the Resource Department with the words they want on the coin or bill or whatever and what the curreny is made of.
After it is built the RD department manually edits the machine to a new name/type {Alenz coin press}. This unique device can only be built by a tool that doesn't exist. The tool could be called "contact the Resource Department to create a conterfeit press with a good RP reason for being able to do it". {That might be a little long for a tool name
} Everyone in the game can see the name of the machine but no more can be built without help from the resource department.
The RD edits the unique device to be able to create the grams of curreny requested. Each gram would count as one note, coin, whatever.
I'm not sure that all that will work.
Let us know.
There shouldn't be too many indiviuals in a position to build these.
Well maybe I'd like to make alot of them to make commerative coins of all the locations in Cantr.
Have a new coin press or whatever it should be known as.
If someone builds it they contact the Resource Department with the words they want on the coin or bill or whatever and what the curreny is made of.
After it is built the RD department manually edits the machine to a new name/type {Alenz coin press}. This unique device can only be built by a tool that doesn't exist. The tool could be called "contact the Resource Department to create a conterfeit press with a good RP reason for being able to do it". {That might be a little long for a tool name
} Everyone in the game can see the name of the machine but no more can be built without help from the resource department.
The RD edits the unique device to be able to create the grams of curreny requested. Each gram would count as one note, coin, whatever.
I'm not sure that all that will work.
Let us know.
There shouldn't be too many indiviuals in a position to build these.
Well maybe I'd like to make alot of them to make commerative coins of all the locations in Cantr.
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swymir
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I can't beleive no one has just mined gold and used that as a currancy. Sure there is no use for it, but there will be no use for these coins either. Gold is mined in very small quanities a day. Why not just trade the 20g a day (I think it is) for the 800g of potatoes and such. It's fullproof. If anyone wants to go and mine their own gold they aren't commiting fraud just adding more wealth to the city. Everyone is arguing on the best way to trade large amounts of goods. I don't understand why not just use gold.
That's how things are done in RL. The only problem I could see with this is if you are like 50 days travelling away from gold. I don't know exactly where you can get it besides Klojt Mountains.
That's how things are done in RL. The only problem I could see with this is if you are like 50 days travelling away from gold. I don't know exactly where you can get it besides Klojt Mountains.
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watermelonnose
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The problem with gold in the game is precisely what you said it has no use other than jewellery as far as I know. It fits one aspect of what a money commodity should have, namely scarcity. But is lacking the other demand. To use gold in game the characters would have to covet it in and of itself.
People living in the Klojt Mountains should feel lucky that it doesn't have value like in the real world. Look out Aztecs here comes Cortez.
People living in the Klojt Mountains should feel lucky that it doesn't have value like in the real world. Look out Aztecs here comes Cortez.
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