Bringing Cotton Cloth back into Balance.

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Does the cotton cloth rates need to be more balanced?

Poll ended at Thu Apr 20, 2006 3:25 am

Yes (Add a "Cotton Picker" type machine too even things up
11
52%
Yes (Increase the price of Hemp Cloth)
0
No votes
Yes (Reduce the processing needed for cotton colth)
2
10%
No (The cotton cloth costs are already balanced)
6
29%
No (Balancing Cotton, can only hurt Silk further)
2
10%
 
Total votes: 21
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the_antisocial_hermit
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Postby the_antisocial_hermit » Tue Mar 21, 2006 7:00 pm

Oasis wrote:
Maelstrom wrote:What's wrong with one type of clothing being easier/harder to make/produce than another? They shouldn't just be clones of each other with different names.


This is the whole reason for the desired change. Cotton clothing is as hard and labour intensive to make as silk ones, however not nearly as prestigeous or sought after. They seem to have been originally made to be "clones" when it is an imbalance for them to be this way.

The change suggested would not make cotton cloth as easy as hemp, but in between silk and hemp. I have always thought cotton collection to be way too slow, and it is refreshing to have someone come up with a viable solution, imo.


My thoughts exactly. :)
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Maelstrom
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Postby Maelstrom » Tue Mar 21, 2006 7:45 pm

the_antisocial_hermit wrote:
Oasis wrote:
Maelstrom wrote:What's wrong with one type of clothing being easier/harder to make/produce than another? They shouldn't just be clones of each other with different names.


This is the whole reason for the desired change. Cotton clothing is as hard and labour intensive to make as silk ones, however not nearly as prestigeous or sought after. They seem to have been originally made to be "clones" when it is an imbalance for them to be this way.

The change suggested would not make cotton cloth as easy as hemp, but in between silk and hemp. I have always thought cotton collection to be way too slow, and it is refreshing to have someone come up with a viable solution, imo.


My thoughts exactly. :)


As I get sucked into a debate because I'm a Tailor... :wink:

So we want to adjust for the fact that players are treating silk as more valuable/desirable than cotton, even though in game they're currently comparable (or with cotton actually being -more- valuable than silk) by aligning the game to match the real world expectations of the players, as opposed to their characters adjusting to the way things are in Cantr?

:lol: :P Just making sure I understand the question here before I try to offer up a means to address it.

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Surly
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Postby Surly » Tue Mar 21, 2006 8:06 pm

Well said Mael.

And to reiterate... still no actual reasons beyond "it isn't this way in real life" and "because players are imposing RL thinking onto Cantr". Neither of which are particularly good reasons... *EDITED* :P
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Postby the_antisocial_hermit » Tue Mar 21, 2006 8:09 pm

Well.. of course it's the players. ;) I mean, that's how most of the clothing will be thought of and based on...

Remember the changes to all those descriptions? Based on the thoughts of players. :) Great descriptions, and I love them to death, but many people will opt to consider something nice and silky to the skin rather than durable cotton trousers as more valuable and desireable. ;) True though that cotton is noted as soft in some descriptions, I think, like soft cotton slippers.

I personally try to get clothes that fit my char's personality, but some descriptions make some materials just more desireable overall.

You can't fault the players for giving importance to a material when the descriptions of the clothes it can be used to make will without a doubt influence their perception on the material. Overall, cotton is just a basic, nice, soft cloth, compared to a sexy silk or a tough leather or coarse hemp. True, they're RL perceptions of a player, but that's how they're presented in the descriptions of the clothes as well. ;)
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Black Canyon
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Postby Black Canyon » Tue Mar 21, 2006 8:12 pm

Maelstrom wrote:
So we want to adjust for the fact that players are treating silk as more valuable/desirable than cotton, even though in game they're currently comparable (or with cotton actually being -more- valuable than silk) by aligning the game to match the real world expectations of the players, as opposed to their characters adjusting to the way things are in Cantr?


"a loosely fitting dress made of cotton cloth hangs straight from the shoulders. It has tiny frills around the short sleeves and around the hem which ends demurely just below the knees"

"an elegant dress of fine silk clings to the body, starting close around the neck and, flaring at the hips, hangs beautifully to the ankles. Well fitted sleeves end at the wrists and small pieces of embroidery decorate the bodice"


:) Now..... which of these would you rather wear? :wink:
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Postby the_antisocial_hermit » Tue Mar 21, 2006 8:13 pm

Nice to see you on the same page, BC. :lol:
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Postby Oasis » Tue Mar 21, 2006 8:29 pm

*Links arms with the other two girls, staring down the men*
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Marian
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Postby Marian » Tue Mar 21, 2006 8:38 pm

Now..... which of these would you rather wear?


The cotton one probably, if I had to pick, that silk dress doesn't fit any of my characters personalities and they'd feel awkward and overdressed in it. (Though most of them would feel a little silly in the cotton dress too. Most of mine who have gotten away from hide clothes wear pants anyway because a skirt is impractical for someone who travels or works all the time.)

And MAelstrom already posted what I was going to say. If cotton is harder to produce it should be more valuable, if not it's the trader's faults for not explaining how much time it takes to make and insisting on a fair price.

I've noticed that people in the game are very fact-oriented. You can hype up a resource or tool to make it look like it's worth more than it really is, no matter how good a roleplayer you are...everything with a practical use in CAntr traded after calculating the amount of days it took to gather and process it versus whatever it is you're tradign for, why should cotton string or rope be any different?

As for clothing, you can't caluculate how much it's worth out based on the description because that has to do with individual characters and what fits their personality, not the facts. If someone really really wants cotton, say they just have to have a cotton robe or toga, they'll pay more for it, and somebody else could have a farmer who wants a pair of hemp work gloves way more than sissy cotton or silk ones.
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Postby SekoETC » Tue Mar 21, 2006 8:47 pm

I gotta say the cotton chemise looked a lot more inviting before the change. Now one of my characters is worried that she looks fat in it.
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Postby the_antisocial_hermit » Tue Mar 21, 2006 8:53 pm

Marian wrote:The cotton one probably, if I had to pick, that silk dress doesn't fit any of my characters personalities and they'd feel awkward and overdressed in it. (Though most of them would feel a little silly in the cotton dress too. Most of mine who have gotten away from hide clothes wear pants anyway because a skirt is impractical for someone who travels or works all the time.)

And MAelstrom already posted what I was going to say. If cotton is harder to produce it should be more valuable, if not it's the trader's faults for not explaining how much time it takes to make and insisting on a fair price.

I've noticed that people in the game are very fact-oriented. You can hype up a resource or tool to make it look like it's worth more than it really is, no matter how good a roleplayer you are...everything with a practical use in CAntr traded after calculating the amount of days it took to gather and process it versus whatever it is you're tradign for, why should cotton string or rope be any different?

As for clothing, you can't caluculate how much it's worth out based on the description because that has to do with individual characters and what fits their personality, not the facts. If someone really really wants cotton, say they just have to have a cotton robe or toga, they'll pay more for it, and somebody else could have a farmer who wants a pair of hemp work gloves way more than sissy cotton or silk ones.


While what you say is true, what is it you use to decide whether a particular sort of clothing is right for that character's personality and for the utility of a particular item, say dress vs. pants? The description.

My characters also determine by their personality what they want to wear, regardless of cost, but most people won't go by that. I have a char that prefers silk to cotton and one that would prefer cotton to silk.

Most players will go by the description first, and unfortunately, many just go by the description, not a combination of the description combined with the character's personality.

But of the two dresses, most people will probably go for the silk over the cotton. I would choose the silk if the character was complex and preferred looking rich and sultry. I would choose the cotton if it were a character of simple wants and needs that only wanted something nice and soft to wear. The description of the silk dress though, is more appealing to the visual eye though. If it were me choosing for myself, as a player, rather than based on my individual character's personalities, I'd choose the silk.
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Maelstrom
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Postby Maelstrom » Tue Mar 21, 2006 8:59 pm

Black Canyon wrote:
Maelstrom wrote:
So we want to adjust for the fact that players are treating silk as more valuable/desirable than cotton, even though in game they're currently comparable (or with cotton actually being -more- valuable than silk) by aligning the game to match the real world expectations of the players, as opposed to their characters adjusting to the way things are in Cantr?


"a loosely fitting dress made of cotton cloth hangs straight from the shoulders. It has tiny frills around the short sleeves and around the hem which ends demurely just below the knees"

"an elegant dress of fine silk clings to the body, starting close around the neck and, flaring at the hips, hangs beautifully to the ankles. Well fitted sleeves end at the wrists and small pieces of embroidery decorate the bodice"


:) Now..... which of these would you rather wear? :wink:


Apples to oranges. :roll: That's a chemise vs a full dress.

"a simple dress of soft cotton covers the wearer`s body. The sleeves are wide and comfortable, the length comes to just above the ankle in a pretty flare"

So you might be highlighting that we need more cotton clothing types (i.e. fancier options). Does that comparison of two different items explain the character's concept of silk value? No. I have a character who's tickled to have acquired hemp for clothing, because it's different (i.e. not available locally) and therefore, should be of more value. Anyone who treats it as otherwise is RPing poorly. :shrug:

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Postby Surly » Tue Mar 21, 2006 9:08 pm

*backs Maelstrom up firmly*

What he said... he is just better at saying it than I am... :P
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Postby elTegra » Tue Mar 21, 2006 9:12 pm

Maybe I should clarify the question before coming up with solutions.

Question One is the balance of the different types of cloth balanced? (some say yes some say no)

Question Two is the cost of cotton cloth incomparison to other asethitic items an accurate (or even semi-accurate) representation of the world.
(No one has commented on this, So I think its this part that needs clarification)
Last edited by elTegra on Wed Mar 22, 2006 12:17 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Marian » Tue Mar 21, 2006 9:13 pm

"a simple dress of soft cotton covers the wearer`s body. The sleeves are wide and comfortable, the length comes to just above the ankle in a pretty flare"


Nice! You should get on the staff and make clothes. :)
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Postby Maelstrom » Tue Mar 21, 2006 9:19 pm

Marian wrote:
"a simple dress of soft cotton covers the wearer`s body. The sleeves are wide and comfortable, the length comes to just above the ankle in a pretty flare"


Nice! You should get on the staff and make clothes. :)


Did you not notice that all existing items (almost) were rewritten? They didn't do it themselves

:lol:

-Mael, Tailor for RD

(jewelry is next, I did the clothing first)

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