All Quiet on the Western Front?

[SekoETC]

I don't think people are mean to each other, at least in large scale. We have a good community here, though sometimes it's better let newbies know they're acting silly or suggesting something that's been said a million times, to save them from further embarrasment. We all have our good and bad sides, sometimes I am pissed at people (and not just those who nearly everyone hates, like Thetaris and in some cases Cookie, but active oldbies as well) but then I remember that they're not always like that, they have their good days as well. Some just happen to be childish, some have no sense of humour, some are eternally bitter, some theatric and the list goes on and on. But everyone I know here has some good features as well, I can't call anyone totally evil.

We need the 4-day rule because there are so many people who have a terrible grasp of the CR. For me, CR is totally understandable, I rarely think about my own motives but think through the character's personality, therefor I have trouble imagining how someone might not get it. But from what I've heard, many people have constant trouble of thinking in character and let all sorts of OOC garbage affect their decisions. I want to believe good about everybody, that if someone says they're not cheating then they're not. And I have no trouble having characters interact with others whom I know to be played by ex-cheaters. But it's hard to fully trust people after all you've heard, really.

[Mafia Salad]

I think part of it is that it is a slow time of the year, In other online games I played, Summer and around Christmas/New Years were the most active times of the year, and spring, especially April were the slow periods. It's just a time when people have other things to do with their spare time then get onto a computer.

Part of it is the lag, Even though I am on spring break right now and stuck in the dorm, I didn't get on the forum for two days, and barely played the game because of how slow everything was. I just found other stuff to do.

And part of it is that nobody talks about Cantr in the Cantr Discussion forum. Anything interesting going on isn't talked about because of fear that somebody will use it against them.
Exhibit A compared to two years earlier Exhibit B
I know they really aren’t a direct comparison, but if you just look at the hush hush nature of Exhibit A compared to the curiosity and willingness to share in Exhibit B it shows a change of attitude about talking about in game events sometime in those two years. And the earlier stuff was a lot more interesting to read and begged a reply. The recent stuff is like smelling fresh cookies cooking in the oven and then finding out they are all for the neighborhood kids and you don't get any.

[formerly known as hf]

I think the lag has a lot to do with the low activity in-game, but the lag doesn't seem to affect the forums much.

In game inactiveness means there's less going on to discuss out-of-game, and people seem to be getting fed-up and spending less time on Cantr. Less time on Cantr also means less time on the forums...

I rarely talk about in-game things out of game, unless it's very retrospective, but that's just me I guess.

[Jos Elkink]

Thanks everybody for the useful comments.

I know the lag is important - I was not trying to deny that ... It's hugely important. But the thread above also seems to suggest that the atmosphere on the forums is changing, and that's worrysome as well and deserves attention.

Seko, I quite strongly disagree that newbies with suggestions should be treated like you suggest. At least it can be done in a much nicer way, like "Yeah, good idea, and we can talk about it, but read this as well .." and then a link to a previous thread on the subject. It's difficult to put nicely that the idea is not new, but surely it's possible?

[Jos Elkink]

Oh, now I forgot what I really wanted to say ... Strikingly enough, when I look at the statistics, the number of 'talking events' in Cantr have actually not really decreased over the past few days. They're still going up and down around the same average as they have done for quite a while, and which is higher than before that. So no technical indication of any lack of activity ...

[nitefyre]

Unless this trend continues for several months, I don't think it's worth worrying about, Jos. I've been here a while, well, the longest besides yourself on this topic, and I think I can say we've seen lulls and pick-ups before. The comments that were added about Spring cleaning and going out and doing things are as valid as blaming the four day rule, which is of course needed. It's pretty clear that most of the players have changed since I've joined, and the forum community has become much larger than the Yahoo group, so the atmosphere too has changed.

Perhaps now I should start off by using Last of the Mohicans to explain that, though I think that's taken for granted in terms of interpretation.

Anyways, the analogy was to the book version, in the scene where the German soldiers would defecate into boxes while playing chess to pass the time. It's not a nice analogy by any means, but sometimes it feels like that's what Cantring's like...sitting here, enjoying yourself through mind exercise and less so with your arms, juxtaposed to the deployment of our busy days. I hope I've clarified that a bit.

Funnily, after three years, I finally figured out a new way to provide incentive to one's troop and loyal followers...casting aside worthless "promotions" or "material prizes." Rather proud of myself there, and it was funny because the answer rested in the first two letters of the ancronym--"RPG".

PS> As I let my mind pop in yet another direction, I would also blame the large investments a player like myself would put into a character. Most characters are a dime a dozen but sometimes, when you're intent on pushing the envelope so to speak, it requires a sustained effort. And then, once they've hit their climax, you just want to keep them to linger around...the better days are clearly behind them so you pay less attention to it. With less IG intake, one is bound to become yet another reminiscing RKL...or not post at all.

[Marian]

I just wanted to point out that I never said anything against the four day rule, since there seems to be some confusion there.

My post specifically said that even if you're following it, for instance referring something over a week after it's happened, people will still get testy about it and the general impression I've gotten is that it's best to never try to discuss in game events on the forums, ever, unless it's something like the Lad Empire or whatever that happened years and years ago.

[The Sociologist]

And part of it is that nobody talks about Cantr in the Cantr Discussion forum. Anything interesting going on isn't talked about because of fear that somebody will use it against them.
Exhibit A compared to two years earlier Exhibit B
I know they really aren’t a direct comparison, but if you just look at the hush hush nature of Exhibit A compared to the curiosity and willingness to share in Exhibit B it shows a change of attitude about talking about in game events sometime in those two years. And the earlier stuff was a lot more interesting to read and begged a reply.

Yes, but you're comparing Cantr in the days when it was played more as a strategy game. Days of the Lad Empire and suchlike. Nowadays, that kind of Cantr no longer exists. I just plod along hoping things will improve somewhere down the line while I maintain or build up my positions. Mainly I do it for the sake of one or two characters.

I'm not sure we can ever go back to the "old" Cantr since so many of the players who created that world simply left. When the tiredness and skills systems were introduced, their complaints were simply ignored, so they left.

I was quite amused by the recent Zhift Forest business myself. One can imagine a time long past when players with verve and imagination set off with precisely such ambitions and created things like the Lad Empire and so on, becoming almost godlike to the later generations who can never hope to repeat their feats.

Perhaps at some point Cantr should be reset. But before that could happen some things need to be fixed. Players should be permitted to choose the skills profiles of their characters somewhat better, assuming skills are retained at all, and combat needs to be vastly improved. Four people with sledgehammers joining a project together should be able to break a lock, and so on. Everything needs to be loosened up.

At the moment the game is so crushingly conservative I'm surprised anyone is here at all. The explanation for the Polish success is that they are still building up their world from scratch. They are not confronted with the fact that all the keys roundabout have fallen into the hands of....let me be polite....characters whose players are "charismatically and strategically challenged". So loosening up the basis of political power might help.

Oh and I'm not writing as a loser without any power charries. Those who know my characters know that. I would be prepared to run the risk of a loosened up and more dangerous system because I know my own power characters could survive it and might even benefit by it.

To sum up, if you want the game to be more exciting, then loosen it up.

[Jos Elkink]

Yes, but you're comparing Cantr in the days when it was played more as a strategy game. Days of the Lad Empire and suchlike. (...) I'm not sure we can ever go back to the "old" Cantr since so many of the players who created that world simply left. When the tiredness and skills systems were introduced, their complaints were simply ignored, so they left.

To be sure: the creator of the Lad Empire was banned after serious rule breaches; the main successor emperor was played by the inventor (!) of the skills system in Cantr; one of the highest advisors and I think several other major players never left; the highest military guy is still playing. In other words, I think Lad was mainly created by players who did not leave because of skills or tiredness.

That's not to deny anything of the main point of your post, though, as I find it rather convincing. Cantr has changed, and leaders are more and more strategically challenged, as you put it ... And it bores me too.

Tiredness does not really affect the game anymore, does it? That was a total failure - in my opinion more because I listened too much than because I listened too little. The skills system ... well ... I'm not sure what to say. I care less and less about it, and in fact argued for a very long time against it before I decided to implement it. It's kind of realistic and I was hoping it would have an interesting genetic effect, but it never really worked out in any interesting fashion, in my opinion. I'm very much against a preset type of skills system, though, like you are suggesting. Then I'd rather have no skills at all. You would have a system where you get a certain number of skill points and you can distribute them to your liking among the different possible skills?

I still think that almost all big developments in Cantr - Lad Empire; Quillanoi republic; Blojt; to a lesser extent Blackrock; etc. - are almost all due to more or less serious capital rule breaches. It seems hard to play within the rules and really get something off the ground.

Perhaps your loosening up suggestion is indeed a solution. I will certainly think about it further. As I said, I find the game is getting more and more boring as well, at times, although some developments are still rather cool.

I should note, though, that the whole K-island is much newer than Lad etc. and established after the game had already transformed a lot, yet it is one of the more exciting regions, especially strategically. Wouldn't you agree?

I totally miss the fact that there are no wars in Cantr - or hardly any -; that there are very few coups; that political leaders are rarely seriously challenged; that people have a strong tendency to spread in tiny communities so all can be leaders instead of big towns where leadership matters; etc.

[nateflory]

Jos Wrote:I totally miss the fact that there are no wars in Cantr - or hardly any -; that there are very few coups; that political leaders are rarely seriously challenged; that people have a strong tendency to spread in tiny communities so all can be leaders instead of big towns where leadership matters; etc.

I find it interesting as a player to see that this "Society simulator" is simulating what I've noticed happens at festivals and larger gatherings of people. Small cliques emerge with many local leaders, and it takes a collossal effort on someones part to organize these small groups into a collaborative whole.
In that regard, I'd say the original intent of the game is performing wonderfully.

[Stan]

If I may add something here. I think it is relevant and it just occurred to me. Is it possible that all Cantrarians are basically the same? I mean they can only create what has already been created. Much of human history is filled with conquerors and inventors and artists that could create something which gave them an advantage over everyone in the world.

No one gets great because they create a government system or military strategy. To be sure, strategists that have the capability to develop tools to give them leverage over their opponents are usually the victorious. I could site innumerable people throughout history and even today.

Perhaps what we need to spark interest in the Cantr world is a chance for our characters to be creative inventors so they can create something that will give them an advantage in the world. Where skills seemed to be a failure let's allow the creativity of the players to be utilized through the invention process.

In my real life job, the advantage my company, GE, has over most of the competition we face is our innovation. Even out motto, Imagination at Work, speaks to it. That's why we're the largest and one of the most admired companies in the world. It's the same for many other organizations. The great ones are driven by creativity. The way it is now, in Cantr, you have to rely on your people to be awake and you have to rely on the closeness of resources. If you don't have a resource you can't make something. In real life you might discover another way. And that would give you an advantage over your neighbors.

I have an idea of how to improve things.

Instead of predefining Applications such as cars, radios, etc. Give all the resources "Properties". Find a way for us to be able to combine ANY resource with any other resource to produce something tangible and useful. Also, perhaps the properties could be modified by things like heating. This could give incentive for people to develop things that would help them defeat the neighboring dictator or to get around the world in 80 days...something to set them apart from all other Catrarians.

I got this idea the other day when I was reading Wichita's announcement of Barley and thought to myself, "Why can't I combine any herb or vegetable in my soup and see what happens?"

I realize this would be a MAJOR change, but perhaps we could start to move in that direction.

Just a thought.

[PRUT]

I still think that almost all big developments in Cantr - Lad Empire; Quillanoi republic; Blojt; to a lesser extent Blackrock; etc. - are almost all due to more or less serious capital rule breaches. It seems hard to play within the rules and really get something off the ground.

I totally miss the fact that there are no wars in Cantr - or hardly any -; that there are very few coups; that political leaders are rarely seriously challenged; that people have a strong tendency to spread in tiny communities so all can be leaders instead of big towns where leadership matters; etc.

Learn polish and come on the eastern front.
Polish oldest and biggest empire of Vlotryan Kingdom was founded (what is almost certain) with no CRB (except maybe single chars). It was founded by the idea and now control 6-7 teritories (including overseas).
The reason why CR wasn't broken, was mentioned idea. Charries learned them and accepted them and that makes them close to to others, even when their have their own businesses. This is great, I think. The others more or less were founded in oposition to Vlotryan so their idea is strong too.
This is stronger than CRB, which can be usefull just to few charries.

Very few coups? no challenge to rulers? I think You fill find them if we find you. Intriques, ploting, coups are quite popular here, and rulers have to watch their chairs

To have wars in Cantr, we should implement looses. Now everything except char's lives is forever. Lets mplement war machines (like siege wapons) with posibilities of destruction buildings, vehicles. If Cantrians are afraid of loosing sth, they would be more likely to arm theirselves to defend or maybe even to force neighbours to pay for it
I also think that to have war, weapons shoud be more based on economy. Why bows or crossbows don't use belts for example? Weapons also should differ with posibilities to atack. With atack once per day we would have no war.

But anyway... silence will finish when civilisations from east and west meet each other. Looking at mass cruelty and intrique I saw recently in one town, there is sth co be affraid of.

[Phalynx]

BTW for an example see the response to this guys first post ever..... HERE

And this after the bulk of this thread was posted... welcome to the forum eh?

At least Pie tried..

[Ahoyhoy]

Jos, I think the reason why there aren't massive empires anymore is because the restricted resources rule that went into effect forced people to spread apart. I think if and when gardens or something that makes it easier to grow food are made then people will start to congregate and form empires inside of one city again.

Right now though, empires are slowly starting to form but they are more widespread due to the restricted resources rule and slower to grow and harder to manage.

[Jos Elkink]

Right now though, empires are slowly starting to form but they are more widespread due to the restricted resources rule and slower to grow and harder to manage.

Well, if that is the case, it is the effect we envisioned when creating the resource gathering limits ...